Stop on the

[JustMy2Cents]

Stop on the "dead ball" vice on the whistle?

Sorry guys, as a coach I have to disagree with this one.

While I understand the safety issue involved with late hits after the "dead ball" yet prior to the whistle, I find it necessary to teach the kids to play till they hear a whistle (in fact, my college coach taught us to play till the "last shrill of the whistle" and no, we didn't get flagged for a ton of late hits).

How is a 16-year-old kid supposed to know when a "dead ball" exists? Half the time, a 16-year-old kid don't know the difference between mashed 'tators and scrambled eggs.

I'll give you one instance that happened this year why, as a coach, you HAVE to teach your kids to play to the whistle:

1) K punts
2) K shanks punt, the ball rolls to a stop by the sideline.
3) While the ball is technically "dead" at this point, there is no whistle
4) R picks up the "dead ball" and runs the doggone thing down the sideline from about the R40 to the K3
5) Every K player thought it was a "dead ball," which, in actuality it was...but no whistle, and as a result, K stopped pursuing the loose ball.

So, as an official, which coach do you want to tell you made a mistake to, K or R? And if you want to see a livid coach on the sideline, call that punt return back to the "dead ball" spot on the R40, and tell him that, technically, "we had a 'dead ball' but we just couldn't get the whistle blown in time."

In this particular instance, the officials ruled correctly, in my opinion (contrary to what the officials that brought this topic up would believe), and ruled the ball for R, 1-G from the K3. There was no whistle, play continues.

Also, I guess we would be able to remove the portion of the rulebook involving IWs. Since we are going to play to the "dead ball" then there would never be an IW.

Officials rely on the whistle to signal the end of the play just as much as the coaches and the players do.

[Edited by JustMy2Cents on Oct 23rd, 2003 at 07:30 AM]

[Rich]

A loose ball is not dead when it stops. It is dead when it is on the ground motionless AND no player attempts to secure possession. See NFHS 4-2-2-e-2.

The problem on this play is not the official -- it is the fact that K didn't pick the ball up and force the whistle. I will let the ball stop and then scan the field for approaching players. As long as someone is coming towards the ball I am not going to blow it down.

What we are talking about is the play where a defensive player KNOWS the runner is down but continues to hit or piles on because "there wasn't a whistle."

Put yourself in our place. We absolutely need to make sure we see a ball in possession before we blow down a play. Sometimes, in smaller crews, it means the whistle may come in a half-second late while we "see ball."

[AndrewMcCarthy]

While the ball is technically "dead" at this point, there is no whistle

Technically it's not dead at this point- you even said so!! If R knows that it's still live then K, with a little coaching, can certainly learn too.

I had a play last year- player goes to catch a punt and muffs it- it rolls forward a couple yards and he goes down in a crouch and covers it. The ball is obviously dead but before the whistle sounds a K player comes over and levels him. Flag down- personal foul- coach goes crazy. "He's playing to the whistle!!"

I'm sorry, but players have GOT to be smarter than this.

[TXMike]

I know this is a fine point and may be beyond what you wnat to treach the kids but here goes anyways.....

When we say the play kills itself, not the whistle, we are referring to the FACT tht BY RULE a ball is "Dead" (there is a specific defintion of dead ball), whether or not there is a whistle. The whistle can cause a live ball to become dead but when it does so, it is typically an IW. The whistle is a notice to everyone on the field that the ball is dead. If a kid is blocking far away from the play and blocks after the ball is dead but before a whistle is sounded, he is not going to be flagged for a late hit. There was no way he could know. If a runner is laying on the ground and someone pounces on him, he is going to get flagged for a late hit as we expect the players to know that the kid is down and the ball is dead. That is a basic rule.

Think about this one, if you truly believe players should go at it "till the whistle" regardless then what would you do with those schools for the deaf who are never going to hear a whistle? Let them go until we get in and physically stop them?

[JustMy2Cents]

Mr. Fronheiser,

Like I said, I understand your (and other's) concern about piling on a stopped ballcarrier. But at the end of the day, I have rely on the whistle, because you know as well as I do, that there is no consistent time that a player is stopped. If there were, there would not be plays where a "theorectically" stopped ballcarrier, doesn't break out of a scrum and run it to the endzone. It happens several times a year, and probably in games that each of us have worked.

I wish it were that simple for me, as a coach, to teach the players what you would like to see, but I don't see how it is possible. I am willing to entertain suggestions.

[TXMike]

I find it hard (If not impossible) to believe that when a ball carrier is standing and no whistle has been blown yet, that ANY official will consider action against him a "late hit". Most of the time when this becomes an issue is when there is action at the sideline and the runner is out of bounds but no whistle has blown yet and then he is hit. That seems to be when coaches scream the most that there should not be a flag.

That being said, if you have a play where the ball carrier is off his feet and being carried backwards and is then thrown to the ground violently or is hit by other players, that will likely draw a flag.

[PiggSkin]

Around here, the association keeps telling us to not blow the whistle if you can't "see leather..." As a result, some plays do not have a whistle to end action... Yet, somehow, players know that the ball is down, start unpiling, and head back to their huddles... You'd be surprised how often there is no whistle...

If you want officials to pound on the whistle as soon as the play is dead, then be prepared for 5-20% of your plays being ended by inadvertent whistles...

[JustMy2Cents]

Guys,

There are "exceptions" to every rule...you can think of some and I can think of some.

There have to be some fundamentally sound rules that we can rely on every time...and in my opinion, stopping a play on the whistle is one of them.

Mr. McCarthy,

Are you sure that what you described wouldn't be "unnecessary roughness" vice "late hit". Either way, it is a personal foul. So regardless of when the whistle sounds, it is a penalty and should be called. I don't have a rulebook handy so I am probably wrong on this one, which I am sure will be pointed out to me in a matter of seconds.

[TXMike]

You want a fundamental rule? How about this one? NO PLAYER SHALL TACKLE OR BLOCK THE RUNNER WHEN HE IS CLEARLY OUT OF BOUNDS OR THROW HIM TO THE GROUND AFTER THE BALL BECOMES DEAD.

[JasonTX]

Here is a play.

Team A ball 1st and 10 at the 50. A44 takes a handoff and runs to the B-40 where he trips and his knee hits the ground. No whistle sounded and he gets up and runs another 10 yards to the B-30 and is leveled by the Safety and finally a whistle is blown. It was obvious that the runner was down and everyone knew, but the bullheaded safety remembered being taught to play til the whistle and even though he saw the runner was down he hit him anyway. By rule there are two fouls here. One for the dead ball delay of game by A44 and then the other for the dead ball late hit on the safety. We can go on and on about this teaching method but the bottom line is the players are taking a risk by using that method and when I am determining if a foul occurred I care less if the whistle is blown. That don't even come into the equation. A rare situation happened to me once. After I seen the play was dead I reached for my whistle and it wasn't there. Somehow it came unclipped. Luckily there wasn't any late hits but had there been I wouldn't have hesitated in flagging them.

[PiggSkin]

$.02...

Just like anything else, common sense has to be applied... If there is reasonable doubt as to whether the player is down or the play has ended, then a hit on the ballcarrier, if otherwise clean, probably won't be flagged... If the player is obviously down, then a late hit gets flagged, regardless of the whistle...

The only whistle guideline I can provide is this:
If the whistle has blown, the play is dead.

The opposite statement:
If the whistle has not blown, the play is not dead.
is FALSE

[TXMike]

Jason: Obviously I did not see that play but based on your description and the mental picture I have, I don't see justification for the flag on the safety. When those bang bang plays happen and many folks cannot clearly see if the knee is down or not but the kid keeps running, it is ABSOILUTELY our responsibility to shut things down quickly to prevent just this type stuff.

[JasonTX]

Originally posted by TXMike
Jason: Obviously I did not see that play but based on your description and the mental picture I have, I don't see justification for the flag on the safety. When those bang bang plays happen and many folks cannot clearly see if the knee is down or not but the kid keeps running, it is ABSOILUTELY our responsibility to shut things down quickly to prevent just this type stuff.

That's why I put it was obvious to the safety and he knew the runner was down, he was just taking a shot at him because the whistle hasn't blown. I agree we do need to get things shut down, but either way those late hits are flaggable by rule even if the whistle don't sound. But I'm like you, if I judge the player wasn't aware of the ball being dead then most likely I will just talk to the player.

[JustMy2Cents]

TXMike,

Are you shouting at me? Yes, that is plain and simple, but I don't know how relevant. It is easy to see by everyone on the field when a runner is OOB. In a scrum in the middle of the field, much less visibility as to whether or not we have a "dead ball."

Yes, I would expect a player to "let up" when he sees a player OOB regardless of the sounding of the whistle; but in that scrum, I want 11 hats on the ball carrier until we hear a whistle.

[keystoneref]

The 2 situations that I see where the whistle is a little tardy and the player gets drilled are these. R muffs a kick and scrambles after the ball and covers up, invariably a kicker will come down and drill him and the coach is screaming a whistle wasn't blown. The K's need to know that the ball is dead even if a whistle isn't blown. We can't blow the whistle untill we are sure that the ball hasn't squirted out the other side. The other situation is a muffed snap by the Qb, the same thing, he just covers up and gets drilled by a defensive lineman. The same reason the whistle is late, we as officials have to KNOW that he has control of the ball (not THINK he has control of the ball). It is the responsibilty of the defense to know that the QB is down and the play is over even if they haven't heard a whistle.