How long to stop?

[JJ]

I will say that the NCAA places a LOT more emphasis on "complete stop" than does MLB. When I watch a pro game I regularly see what I would balk in a college game.

JJ

[justanotherblue]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

First off, those are some pretty serious purposes you must be talking about

Secondly, I disagree completely. You would not balk a kid if his hands stopped at his chest, but his shoulders kept turning, and then the lower body started?

Making up rules... catches up with you pretty quick.

Sorry obviously a concept your not ready to grasp just as yet. Not making up any rules, just a concept taught by the best at his school and video.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Secondly, I disagree completely. You would not balk a kid if his hands stopped at his chest, but his shoulders kept turning, and then the lower body started?

Of course justanotherblue didn't mean this. He meant that the pitcher had better come to a stop (which is not just his hands, but his whole body) before he lifts his kick leg. Pitchers are all the time trying to beat the rule by starting up with the leg while the hands are still on their way to the set position. Any turning of the shoulders once the pitchers hands come to a stop is of course a balk.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Of course justanotherblue didn't mean this. He meant that the pitcher had better come to a stop (which is not just his hands, but his whole body) before he lifts his kick leg. Pitchers are all the time trying to beat the rule by starting up with the leg while the hands are still on their way to the set position. Any turning of the shoulders once the pitchers hands come to a stop is of course a balk.

How the hell did you get that out of what he said? He made an unequivocal statement that had nothing to do with anything other than hands and lower body.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by justanotherblue

As long as his hands have stopped before his lower body begins, he has stopped for all intense and purpose of the rule.

Explain then how this is fully meeting the rule...

"The pitcher, following his stretch, must (a) hold the ball in both hands in front of his body and (b) come to a complete stop." (8.01b, OBR)

Where in that does it say all that has to stop are his hands? He can stop his hands, then waggle his hips, then stop again, then have his lower body begin?

Perhaps you can clear up what you mean.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Explain then how this is fully meeting the rule...

"The pitcher, following his stretch, must (a) hold the ball in both hands in front of his body and (b) come to a complete stop." (8.01b, OBR)

Where in that does it say all that has to stop are his hands? He can stop his hands, then waggle his hips, then stop again, then have his lower body begin?

Perhaps you can clear up what you mean.

While jab's statement is over-reaching and not literally correct, it is correct in most situations. Most of the time, F1 comes set by lowering his joined hands while the rest of the body is still. He then starts his motion by raising the non-pivot foot. If the raising happens before the hands stop, it's a balk. If the hands stop first, it's legal.

In the .001% of the time whare this isn't F1's move, the comment doesn't apply.

The Evans balk video contains an example of this.

[TussAgee11]

Bob, I agree that this is one way to see if F1 balks or not. Certainly the typical "no stop" balk happens when the lower body goes before the hands are stopped.

My point is to eliminate the confusion on why this is a balk. It is not a balk because the legs went before the hands were stopped (that is not in the rule book). It is a balk because the set position was not obtained by the pitcher because he did not come to a complete stop before pitching.

Saying that if he stops his hands before his legs go he is completely legal no matter what is incorrect and may be misleading to new umpires who read here...

As always, just my 2 cents.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Matt

How the hell did you get that out of what he said? He made an unequivocal statement that had nothing to do with anything other than hands and lower body.

Exactly my point. He (jab) said nothing about what Tuss was attributing to his statement. Justanotherblue was saying that the pitcher must stop before raising his kick leg, and that statement, by itself is quite true.

Reading is still fundamental.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Saying that if he stops his hands before his legs go he is completely legal no matter what is incorrect and may be misleading to new umpires who read here...

That is the point. He did not say "no matter what." He gave one example. That the pitcher must come set before he lifts his non-pivot foot (kick leg). He must. It's part of the requirement to come to a complete stop. If he lifts his leg first, then he hasn't stopped, now has he? It's not the only requirement, but as Bob said, it is generally enough to satisfy the rule. You don't see too many pitchers wiggling around with their bodies as you described. Just doesn't happen.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Exactly my point. He (jab) said nothing about what Tuss was attributing to his statement. Justanotherblue was saying that the pitcher must stop before raising his kick leg, and that statement, by itself is quite true.

Reading is still fundamental.

I'll ask nicely once. Please do not condescend to me. My reading and writing are just fine, thank you.

Read what he said again. His statement by itself is NOT true, and did say what Tuss was attributing to his statement.

It would have been correct if he (jab) had merely said that the hands must stop before the lower body begins. However, the statement he made is that the hands are the ONLY things that need to stop before the lower body starts to move. (It's a conditional statement: if x, then y. If you want me to use symbolic logic on why his statement is incorrect, I can, but I think most people would rather I didn't. Besides, Venn diagrams don't work too well in this context, and proofs are boring.)

[Matt]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

That is the point. He did not say "no matter what." He gave one example. That the pitcher must come set before he lifts his non-pivot foot (kick leg). He must. It's part of the requirement to come to a complete stop. If he lifts his leg first, then he hasn't stopped, now has he? It's not the only requirement, but as Bob said, it is generally enough to satisfy the rule. You don't see too many pitchers wiggling around with their bodies as you described. Just doesn't happen.

Yes, it does, especially with submariners.

[TussAgee11]

Steve, we're quibbling about details here, but I'm game for another round...

Saying that stopping the hands before the lower body starts is "satisfying the rule for all intense and purposes" as JAB did (intensive purposes for those who wish to nitpick...but this isn't English class) is not true.

It does not satisfy the must come to a complete stop, it is just one part of a whole body that must stop...

Yes, the hands must stop as well, I'm not disputing that. All I'm saying is that EVERYTHING must stop, so don't look just for the hands to stop... look for EVERYTHING.

[justanotherblue]

Sorry if I confused some of you. Let me try to clear my point. The OP wanted to know how long a pitchers hands have to be stopped, not moving...held still.. to be considered a discernable stop. For that part of the fricken rule, it is taught that as long as his hands have stopped Before his legs start, he has stopped. As for the over 30 different ways a pitcher can balk, depending on rule set, look em up As for the english portion, excuse me all the hell

[Rich]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Steve, we're quibbling about details here, but I'm game for another round...

Saying that stopping the hands before the lower body starts is "satisfying the rule for all intense and purposes" as JAB did (intensive purposes for those who wish to nitpick...but this isn't English class) is not true.

It does not satisfy the must come to a complete stop, it is just one part of a whole body that must stop...

Yes, the hands must stop as well, I'm not disputing that. All I'm saying is that EVERYTHING must stop, so don't look just for the hands to stop... look for EVERYTHING.

It's INTENTS AND PURPOSES! If you're going to nitpick, at least do it correctly.