Neighborhood Play

[JRutledge]

What is so special about American Legion Ball? Where I live if you are open you can work that level if you are assigned. I am sure some people are not allowed to work that level based on who assigns it, but most people that work during the summer are working stuff they would not normally work during the regular season. What is the big deal about American Legion as if you have to be God's gift to umpiring to work it?

Peace

[CO ump]

Originally Posted by jicecone

NJ ,you have to understand, if you have been asked to officiate Am Legion ball then you should have had enough experience to know that info, been better trained by your association or had that self determinations to be cracking the books for that type of info.
Good Luck

Could you please direct me to an authoratative book that lists which situations a failure to touch a base on a force out should result in an out.
My gut tells me no one of consequence would publish this notion for amateur ball. As someone already said, the FPSR rules have negated the need.
Now the only reason to allow it is because an old dog may not be able to learn a new trick.
I also doubt that even before FPSR there was an authoratative source publishing the approval of the nieghborhood out.
Therefore it was an allowance made by the umpires in certain regions at certain levels and such practice passed down by veteran to rookies or rookies at that level.
So njdev may be a very good ump and just not familiar with this particular level of ball. By asking the vets here on this forum for a little insight on the culture of AL ball he's shown wisdom and insight to recognize that there are differences in accepted practices between different levels of ball and is showing respect to the veterans, the league and the game by asking the question.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by CO ump

As someone already said, the FPSR rules have negated the need. Now the only reason to allow it is because an old dog may not be able to learn a new trick.

I have to disagree that the FPSR has totally negated the need for allowing the neighborhood play, CO. Forcing a runner to slide in a direct line into the bag may have diminished the frequency of injuries incurred on the turn, but it certainly didn't eliminate them. Similar to a phantom tag when a runner slides feet first directly into a base, I allow the fielder to clear his glove hand from possibly being spiked without actually looking for contact. So, on a double play ball I'm not looking to see perfect contact with the bag before the turn, provided the fielder doesn't do something unusual on the play.


Tim.

[DG]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What is so special about American Legion Ball? Where I live if you are open you can work that level if you are assigned. I am sure some people are not allowed to work that level based on who assigns it, but most people that work during the summer are working stuff they would not normally work during the regular season. What is the big deal about American Legion as if you have to be God's gift to umpiring to work it?

Peace

Not sure about your area, but around here Legion ball is pretty good summer ball. Worked a game last Friday where winning pitcher took a no hitter into the 9th and was removed when the leadoff man got a hit. He also hit 2 HR's and a double and his team won 6-0. The entire game lasted 2 hours. Not bad for summer. Legion ball here is not for the average Joe to work.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by DG

Not sure about your area, but around here Legion ball is pretty good summer ball. Worked a game last Friday where winning pitcher took a no hitter into the 9th and was removed when the leadoff man got a hit. He also hit 2 HR's and a double and his team won 6-0. The entire game lasted 2 hours. Not bad for summer. Legion ball here is not for the average Joe to work.

There is nothing wrong with that, but to assume that applies everywhere is kind of silly. In my area we have college wood bat leagues that have current D1 players and other level players that have pro experience players in leagues that umpires seem to be clamoring to do much more than AL ball. High School ball has also become more and more popular at least over my career (which Legion Ball once was where I started) and seems more and more common where I currently live. If you are a long time veteran, it is not unusual to have many take most of the summer off and the rookies are the ones working that kind of ball more than established umpires. I hardly work a single game outside of summer tournament near the end July and early August. I have not been hurt one time by that decision. And I do not see this ball any different than a poor man's varsity and I do enough HS varsity during the regular season. Maybe that is because a lot of students in my area are in a basketball gym playing basketball and you do not always get the best athletes playing baseball. Now football has taken off during the summer as well and many of the multi-sports athletes are not playing only baseball. I am now helping with a football clinic and there were kids this evening in pads, and the school just got second in 4A State Championship Baseball game over this past weekend. AL ball was very popular when I was in high school, but I am not seeing that anymore.

Peace

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What is so special about American Legion Ball? Where I live if you are open you can work that level if you are assigned. I am sure some people are not allowed to work that level based on who assigns it, but most people that work during the summer are working stuff they would not normally work during the regular season. What is the big deal about American Legion as if you have to be God's gift to umpiring to work it?

Peace

I will say the same things as DG said: Out here, yeah, you do have to be God's gift to umpiring, or a reasonable facscimilie to get assigned these games, as they are far more competitive than your everyday HS varsity ball, which out here is pretty damn good too. People aren't allowed to work it, not by who assigns it, but by their qualifications.

We have the wood bat/D-1 style games here too, and you have to be good to work those too. There isn't a level of ball offered in my association that I didn't work. But many other umpires were never assigned Legion or wood bat leagues. While you say that all you need to be is "open" to work that kind of ball may be true in your area, but obviously not in the area mentioned, which was the subject. You put inexperienced umpires on Legion ball here, you're asking for trouble.

[CO ump]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

I have to disagree that the FPSR has totally negated the need for allowing the neighborhood play, CO. Forcing a runner to slide in a direct line into the bag may have diminished the frequency of injuries incurred on the turn, but it certainly didn't eliminate them. Similar to a phantom tag when a runner slides feet first directly into a base, I allow the fielder to clear his glove hand from possibly being spiked without actually looking for contact. So, on a double play ball I'm not looking to see perfect contact with the bag before the turn, provided the fielder doesn't do something unusual on the play.


Tim.

If FPSR had been a part of the rules on day 1 do you think the neighborhood out would have evolved?
If steel spikes had never been allowed do you think the phantom tag would ever have been accepted?
If OBR outlawed steel spikes tomorrow I'd have a real hard time justifying a phantom tag. Doesn't mean a fielder couldn't get hurt by plastic cleats, but the liklihood would be so diminished that a strict observation of the tag rule would be in order. IMO

The FPSR took away the offenses ability to "break up" the double play so in order to keep the playing field even the defense should now be expected to actually make the out. IMHO

[Matt]

This may be devil's advocate, this may not be--I haven't decided.

In youth baseball (at levels where metal cleats are allowed,) the acceptance of neighborhood plays is more important than in the higher levels.

1. The runners are less baseball-savvy and will run/slide more aggressively than the situation warrants.

2. Runners are not as familiar with methods of giving up the first out without sliding.

3. FPSR causes runners to slide by default, even when there is no doubt to the outcome of the play and there are other methods of avoiding the fielder.

4. Fielders are not as highly skilled at avoiding a runner's feet.

[JRutledge]

Funny, I see players at all kinds of levels step on the base and get out of the way. I really do not see why this is a problem.

I also call this similar to what Bob says, unless it is obvious they do not touch the base, I am not nit-picking this situation. Unless there is a reason for me to really look hard and long at the feet, then the fielder touched the base. I also do not give a lot of leeway to the runner that is sliding into the base. If they cannot slide properly, then they need to get an out on a FPSR situation.

Peace

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Matt

3. FPSR causes runners to slide by default, even when there is no doubt to the outcome of the play and there are other methods of avoiding the fielder.

I don't call games based on misunderstandings of the rules.

My impression is that the "neighborhood" has gotten a lot smaller in the pros. I'm with Rich on this one: the fielder needs to touch the bag. Hey, even the rule says so.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Okay, since reading is fun and fundamental, let's review here:

The OP said the league used "American League" sliding rules.

Later, jicecone mentioned American Legion baseball for the first time in the thread.

Umpduck asked, "what are American League sliding rules?"

Socalblue gave the link for American Legion rules.

The discussion shifted to the FPSR and the qualifications for umpiring American Legion baseball.

We still did not address the original question asked of the OP's author, which is "what are the American League slide rules?"

I can't find anywhere that it says anything about this league being American Legion.

[David B]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What is so special about American Legion Ball? Where I live if you are open you can work that level if you are assigned. I am sure some people are not allowed to work that level based on who assigns it, but most people that work during the summer are working stuff they would not normally work during the regular season. What is the big deal about American Legion as if you have to be God's gift to umpiring to work it?

Peace

Legion is still the most competitive league in the south, but we like to use that league to train our "up and coming" young umpires during the summer.

We will team them with a veteran to help with training, but seems to work very well.

We have the wooden bat leagues, and although they have college players, its not that competitive to me, its just something the players are doing to bide the summer.

It is kind of funny to watch them try and hit with a wood bat though after using aluminum etc., during the season.

Thanks
David

[LMan]

Originally Posted by umpduck11

I guess I'm gonna be labeled a JA, too, but what are American League slide rules ?

Easy to find, they are right next to the rules on the DH.

[PeteBooth]

From the OP

wood bat ball w/ American League rules

NO FPSR in Straight OBR

Therefore, are you going to allow the "neigborhood" in a game played by OBR rules?

Pete Booth

[Rich]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

From the OP

wood bat ball w/ American League rules

NO FPSR in Straight OBR

Therefore, are you going to allow the "neigborhood" in a game played by OBR rules?

Pete Booth

I'm not going to look for a missed base, but if it slaps me in the face, I'm going to call the runner safe. FPSR or no FPSR.