Calling what you see or what they see

[danreeves1973]

Have had two situations this year where I called something no one else saw. Caught grief both times and while that doesn't bother me, it's made me think about the idea of calling what you see and know vs calling what everyone else percieves.

#1. Lt handed batter, pitch is way outside, he steps in to avoid, I track the pitch and see it BRUSH the back of his leg, pants were baggy and it definitely moved the fabric. I call dead ball, kid is saying, No I didn't get hit, coach is saying he didn't get hit. I explain what I saw, take your base. Coach is mad I just put his best hitter on base.

#2 I'm in C, playing inside the base path, ball hit hard on the ground toward me, I step to avoid and it takes a strange hop and I feel it brush my leg, it keeps going, F6 misses it behind me and it's heading merrily to the outfield. I yell dead ball, eveyone stops, I announce I was hit, award bases, etc, offense is mad because bases were loaded and it was a double at least. Between innings I ask my partner what he saw, he says he thought I dodged it and he never saw the ball veer like it had richocheted off me.

Two situations where I was apparantly the only one who saw something that impacted the game. In both cases I could have ignored what I saw and felt and no one would have known. I feel though if I'm going to do this job and have any integrity as an umpire, I have to call what I see and not what is percieved by the players, coaches etc.

Any thoughts?

[Jawgaump]

Why did you kill the play on the second one that you mentioned??

[danreeves1973]

OBR 5.09 (f) I was inside the baselines, F6 was playing back behind me

[dash_riprock]

If there was no clear audible evidence, I'd let them both go.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

If there was no clear audible evidence, I'd let them both go.

I would have used a bit better timing on the first one. Maybe the wind from the baseball moved the pantleg.

One the second one, I'm killing it immediately before the defense turns two and I have to piss everyone off. If I feel it hit me, it's umpire interference.

It's happened twice, once in 2000 and once this spring. Both times the defense claims I cost them 2 and the offense claimed it would've been a hit to the outfield. No sympathy for either, frankly, just pain. Both shots were metal-bat-induced laser beams that (fortunately) found flesh, not bone.

[Jawgaump]

Still not following why you killed it if it hit you???

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Jawgaump

Still not following why you killed it if it hit you???

Because it's the rule. Umpire interference. Same application in FED/NCAA/OBR. On a batted ball that hasn't passed a runner, the umpire is not "just part of the field."

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by danreeves1973

#1. Lt handed batter, pitch is way outside, he steps in to avoid, I track the pitch and see it BRUSH the back of his leg, pants were baggy and it definitely moved the fabric. I call dead ball, kid is saying, No I didn't get hit, coach is saying he didn't get hit. I explain what I saw, take your base. Coach is mad I just put his best hitter on base.

First things first DO NOT CALL - Dead ball The proper call is TIME

You call what you see because you are not Krescan and do not know what the ramifications are if you do not call it. In your first case you do not know that the coach is going to say he didn't get hit. Suppose you do not call it and the batter, F2 and coach KNEW the batter was hit and the say

C'mmon Blue the ball hit him. Are you going to say "yeah I know but too bad" The point is you do not KNOW so you call what you see

#2 I'm in C, playing inside the base path, ball hit hard on the ground toward me, I step to avoid and it takes a strange hop and I feel it brush my leg, it keeps going, F6 misses it behind me and it's heading merrily to the outfield. I yell dead ball, eveyone stops, I announce I was hit, award bases, etc, offense is mad because bases were loaded and it was a double at least. Between innings I ask my partner what he saw, he says he thought I dodged it and he never saw the ball veer like it had richocheted off me.

Again do not yell Dead ball. As mentioned above the call is TIME

As with number 1 you do not know the reprocussions if you do not call it. How do you know that the defense would not have turned an easy DP. In this particular case the ball went through for a hit but you do know that at the precise TIME you are hit with the ball.

Also, suppose the coach now questions you are you going to say "yeah skip the ball hit me but I chose to ignore"

On the plays mentioned you call what you see. Also, get out of the habit of calling Dead ball.

Pete Booth

[danreeves1973]

Originally Posted by Jawgaump

Still not following why you killed it if it hit you???

OBR rules...5.09 (f) ball becomes dead and runners advance one base....IF... a fair ball...on fair territory...touches an umpire before it has passed an infielder other than the pitcher.

clear enough?

[danreeves1973]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]

On the plays mentioned you call what you see. Also, get out of the habit of calling Dead ball.

Pete Booth

On the first part I agree, hence my statement about it making me question my integrity if I don't call what I see. As for what the ramifications might have been from calling it or not, I agree I don't know, they don't know, we call what we see and let God sort it out.

On the dead ball call, I was taught to say that while calling HS ball with a TASO chapter. Is this a regional preference, deadball vs time or is time what is used in the pro's?

[mbyron]

There is no situation where I will announce "Dead Ball!"

Pro instruction is to call "Time!" or "Foul Ball!" (as appropriate).

[JRutledge]

Sit #1:

First thing you should always take your time on a play like this and let the players tell you what happen or give an indication of what happen. If the player is not selling that they got hit, then it is easy. If the batter does not give you a clear indication, then you have to make a decision. I think if you waited you would not have sent the batter to first.

Sit #2:

IMO this is an obvious call. You were hit and the fielder clearly misplayed the ball. Who cares what the offense says at that point, but you probably should be quick to make that call. All I can say after that is try not to get hit. That is sometimes easier said than done, but it is not very common.

Peace

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by danreeves1973

On the dead ball call, I was taught to say that while calling HS ball with a TASO chapter.

The teacher taught you wrong. It's Time, not dead ball. It is regional, if what you mean by regional is worldwide.

[Emperor Ump]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Sit #1:

First thing you should always take your time on a play like this and let the players tell you what happen or give an indication of what happen. If the player is not selling that they got hit, then it is easy. If the batter does not give you a clear indication, then you have to make a decision. I think if you waited you would not have sent the batter to first.

Sit #2:

IMO this is an obvious call. You were hit and the fielder clearly misplayed the ball. Who cares what the offense says at that point, but you probably should be quick to make that call. All I can say after that is try not to get hit. That is sometimes easier said than done, but it is not very common.

Peace

Great reply. I've had several HBP situations where I wasn't 100% sure. I made my best decision which was based on what I saw/heard and read the batter, if they agree then its easy. If they don't agree ... thats what we get paid for ... to make the tough decisions.

My only addition would be call what you see thats what you're out there for. You are the trained 'professional' on the field. But also don't go looking for things to call which don't necessarily need to be.

A perfect example of that would be a pitcher with a white Nike TPX or other logo on his glove. I've never seen one , Until the other coach brings it up. Oh, your right coach, I'm sorry I didn't notice that."

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by danreeves1973

#2 I'm in C, playing inside the base path, ball hit hard on the ground toward me, I step to avoid and it takes a strange hop and I feel it brush my leg, it keeps going, F6 misses it behind me and it's heading merrily to the outfield. I yell dead ball, everyone stops, I announce I was hit, award bases, etc, offense is mad because bases were loaded and it was a double at least. Between innings I ask my partner what he saw, he says he thought I dodged it and he never saw the ball veer like it had ricocheted off me.

Clearly, you interfered, since you saw contact and the fielder misplayed the ball as a result. Your partner's opinion gives you no help, since all he can say is "I didn't see the interference," not that there was none.

Nobody likes to umpire interference, but it sounds like the right call here.