how would you fix this?

[umpjayfire]

Sitch

I will try to properly paint this picture
0 outs bases empty...2 man mechanics...obr

F3 is playing about 25 feet behind the bag and BU is slightly further back in A
Lefthanded batter hits a hot grounder down the line, over the base where F3 makes a great diving stop.
BU sees its fair, makes proper voice mechanic (meaning none), and just points with his left arm FOUL....uuuuggghhh....
F3, who has heard nothing, knows its a fair ball and it might be a close play (pitcher didn't cover) and runs to first only to see that the B/R has stopped running. F3 steps on the bag and the BU takes a couple steps toward the base and gives an out mechanic....

COMMENCE CRAPHOUSE

I am UIC and ,without being asked, walk up the 1B line to talk to BU who has just said, "What the hell did I just do?" loud enough for the offensive dugout to hear...needless to say he was embarrassed....
If anyone cares I will tell you how we fixed it later but I am interested in how you guys would have fixed it.
Stay with out or call it a foul ball?

[mbyron]

Under FED, of course, once BU signals foul the ball is dead by rule. The defense cannot record an out.

OBR is less clear about this kind of umpire error. The BRD has an OBR ruling that says "the umpire may reverse his call if everyone concerned ignored his initial signal." The umpire's error likely caused BR to stop running. To stick with the erroneous call would give the defense an advantage not intended by the rules.

I would stick with the foul call, apologize to the defense for the blown call, and explain that if it had been a double down the line and I signaled foul, we'd probably still stick with the call.

BU needs to do all the talking during the explanations.

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by umpjayfire

Sitch

I will try to properly paint this picture
0 outs bases empty...2 man mechanics...obr

F3 is playing about 25 feet behind the bag and BU is slightly further back in A
Lefthanded batter hits a hot grounder down the line, over the base where F3 makes a great diving stop.
BU sees its fair, makes proper voice mechanic (meaning none), and just points with his left arm FOUL....uuuuggghhh....
F3, who has heard nothing, knows its a fair ball and it might be a close play (pitcher didn't cover) and runs to first only to see that the B/R has stopped running. F3 steps on the bag and the BU takes a couple steps toward the base and gives an out mechanic....

COMMENCE CRAPHOUSE



I am UIC and ,without being asked, walk up the 1B line to talk to BU who has just said, "What the hell did I just do?" loud enough for the offensive dugout to hear...needless to say he was embarrassed....
If anyone cares I will tell you how we fixed it later but I am interested in how you guys would have fixed it.
Stay with out or call it a foul ball?

If the ball was clearly fair you have to stay with the call. All players have a responsibility to know what the situation is. Screaming foul (since this was close) would be expected. He may have signalled but he didn't verbally call it which would have been expected by both teams. Poor mechanics no question. If the ball was indeed fair the out is the correct call. BR may or may not have seen the foul signal. You don't know that for certain. No matter what you do you're in trouble. Declaring the ball "foul" almost amounts to a "do over". Eat the crow and make the correct call.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by gordon30307

If the ball was clearly fair you have to stay with the call. All players have a responsibility to know what the situation is. Screaming foul (since this was close) would be expected. He may have signalled but he didn't verbally call it which would have been expected by both teams. Poor mechanics no question. If the ball was indeed fair the out is the correct call. BR may or may not have seen the foul signal. You don't know that for certain. No matter what you do you're in trouble. Declaring the ball "foul" almost amounts to a "do over". Eat the crow and make the correct call.

WHAT?

It was called foul. The runner stopped. The craphouse happened because they saw the foul call.

[umpjayfire]

Originally Posted by gordon30307

If the ball was clearly fair you have to stay with the call. All players have a responsibility to know what the situation is. Screaming foul (since this was close) would be expected. He may have signalled but he didn't verbally call it which would have been expected by both teams. Poor mechanics no question. If the ball was indeed fair the out is the correct call. BR may or may not have seen the foul signal. You don't know that for certain. No matter what you do you're in trouble. Declaring the ball "foul" almost amounts to a "do over". Eat the crow and make the correct call.

i think you are saying that we should have called the B/R out...he saw the foul point so he stopped. (he thought he knew the situation)...F3 didn't hear foul and saw a fair ball so he thought he knew the situation...the ball was fair but not 'obvious' to everyone i.e. a nutcutter....when you say 'eat the crow and make the correct call', i am not sure what that should be that is why i am asking

Under FED, you stick with the foul ball call.

I did almost the same exact thing this year.

In a playoff game last night, we had a situation where a batter hit the ball off the end of the bat. The ball bounced out into the field funny. The ball was fielded and the batter/runner thrown out at first. As we follow our eyes to U1, he has his arms up for foul ball!!! Then he slaps his foot. Upon the meeting of the minds, the plate guy and me (U3) KNOW that it didn't hit the batters foot. From my angle, which was 90 degrees from his foot and ball, and seen at least 2 feet of daylight between ball and foot. I know for certain it never hit his foot. Oh well.

The only "right" call was to let the "foul ball" stand. The UIC took charge and told the defensive team head coach that no matter whether there was a judgment mistake or not, by rule, once it is called foul, it is foul. No argument. The batter hit a double after that taking that 0-1 count to full count!

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

WHAT?

It was called foul. The runner stopped. The craphouse happened because they saw the foul call.

It wasn't "called foul" it was signalled foul I don't know about you but I'm going to be yelling foul on close ones down the line. Both teams expect this. BR may or may not have seen ( he probably did but he also could have been throwing a hissy fit because the first baseman made a great play) the signal and we know for a fact the first baseman did not see the signal. If the ball was clearly fair (which it apparently was) have the balls to make the correct call. Admit your mistake and play on.

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by rei

Under FED, you stick with the foul ball call.

I did almost the same exact thing this year.

In a playoff game last night, we had a situation where a batter hit the ball off the end of the bat. The ball bounced out into the field funny. The ball was fielded and the batter/runner thrown out at first. As we follow our eyes to U1, he has his arms up for foul ball!!! Then he slaps his foot. Upon the meeting of the minds, the plate guy and me (U3) KNOW that it didn't hit the batters foot. From my angle, which was 90 degrees from his foot and ball, and seen at least 2 feet of daylight between ball and foot. I know for certain it never hit his foot. Oh well.

The only "right" call was to let the "foul ball" stand. The UIC took charge and told the defensive team head coach that no matter whether there was a judgment mistake or not, by rule, once it is called foul, it is foul. No argument. The batter hit a double after that taking that 0-1 count to full count!

I don't think this game was played using Fed Rules. I beleive it was OBR. UIC has nothing to do with changing this call. Any change has to originate from the calling official which in this case is the BU. UIC certainly can provide input but the change has to come from the calling official.

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by umpjayfire

i think you are saying that we should have called the B/R out...he saw the foul point so he stopped. (he thought he knew the situation)...F3 didn't hear foul and saw a fair ball so he thought he knew the situation...the ball was fair but not 'obvious' to everyone i.e. a nutcutter....when you say 'eat the crow and make the correct call', i am not sure what that should be that is why i am asking

If the ball was indeed "fair" have the balls to make the correct call which is "out". Close ones down the line aren't you yelling "foul" and isn't that what both teams expect? I rest my case.

[chuckfan1]

Gordon...

If someone stops "playing" in this case, because of an umpires signal of foul, then its a foul ball. The Umpire who made the erroneus call has to eat it, and take the crap. This wasnt a ball hit in the gap, where no one is going to make a "foul" call. This was a ball up the line, maybe BR had his head down, whatever, its foul.
And your going to let the play stand? Your going to most likely have a bigger sh*thouse.

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by chuckfan1

Gordon...

If someone stops "playing" in this case, because of an umpires signal of foul, then its a foul ball. The Umpire who made the erroneus call has to eat it, and take the crap. This wasnt a ball hit in the gap, where no one is going to make a "foul" call. This was a ball up the line, maybe BR had his head down, whatever, its foul.
And your going to let the play stand? Your going to most likely have a bigger sh*thouse.

Hey the first baseman didn't stop playing. Not my problem BR didn't run the ball out. It's a bad situation granted. But if the ball was indeed "fair" the only correct call is "out". Don't you scream "foul" on close ones down the line. Don't both teams expect to hear foul verbalized on close ones? I rest my case.

[LakeErieUmp]

This isn't court, Gordon (I know, I'm an attorney and if this was court I'd be billing $350 an hour to talk to you).
F3 didn't stop playing because he saw the ball was fair - AND DIDN'T HAVE ANY CONTRARY INFORMATION FROM THE BU TO TELL HIM OTHERWISE.
However, B/R DID have information from BU that it was foul and that caused him to stop running.
You can "rest your case" but the judgment is going against you.
We're not penalizing the offense because BU flubbed - and there's nothing for UIC to do so we're not going there.

[dash_riprock]

Calling the batter out would be FAR worse than the original foul call. Keep it to one blown call. The ball is foul.

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by LakeErieUmp

This isn't court, Gordon (I know, I'm an attorney and if this was court I'd be billing $350 an hour to talk to you).
F3 didn't stop playing because he saw the ball was fair - AND DIDN'T HAVE ANY CONTRARY INFORMATION FROM THE BU TO TELL HIM OTHERWISE.
However, B/R DID have information from BU that it was foul and that caused him to stop running.
You can "rest your case" but the judgment is going against you.
We're not penalizing the offense because BU flubbed - and there's nothing for UIC to do so we're not going there.

The ball was fair why do we have a do over. Can you aboslutely beyond a reasonable doubt be certain that BR saw the signal? I'm assuming you're an umpire don't you scream foul on close ones down the line? Don't both teams expect this? If the ball is fair the proper call is out. Why penalize the defensive team because of poor mechanics? I win on appeal. Also I'm from Illinois the most corrupt state in the Union and I know people. LOL

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

Calling the batter out would be FAR worse than the original foul call. Keep it to one blown call. The ball is foul.

Is that "fair" to the defensive team of depriving them of an out?