how would you fix this?

[umpjayfire]

Sitch

I will try to properly paint this picture
0 outs bases empty...2 man mechanics...obr

F3 is playing about 25 feet behind the bag and BU is slightly further back in A
Lefthanded batter hits a hot grounder down the line, over the base where F3 makes a great diving stop.
BU sees its fair, makes proper voice mechanic (meaning none), and just points with his left arm FOUL....uuuuggghhh....
F3, who has heard nothing, knows its a fair ball and it might be a close play (pitcher didn't cover) and runs to first only to see that the B/R has stopped running. F3 steps on the bag and the BU takes a couple steps toward the base and gives an out mechanic....

COMMENCE CRAPHOUSE

I am UIC and ,without being asked, walk up the 1B line to talk to BU who has just said, "What the hell did I just do?" loud enough for the offensive dugout to hear...needless to say he was embarrassed....
If anyone cares I will tell you how we fixed it later but I am interested in how you guys would have fixed it.
Stay with out or call it a foul ball?

[mbyron]

Under FED, of course, once BU signals foul the ball is dead by rule. The defense cannot record an out.

OBR is less clear about this kind of umpire error. The BRD has an OBR ruling that says "the umpire may reverse his call if everyone concerned ignored his initial signal." The umpire's error likely caused BR to stop running. To stick with the erroneous call would give the defense an advantage not intended by the rules.

I would stick with the foul call, apologize to the defense for the blown call, and explain that if it had been a double down the line and I signaled foul, we'd probably still stick with the call.

BU needs to do all the talking during the explanations.

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by umpjayfire

Sitch

I will try to properly paint this picture
0 outs bases empty...2 man mechanics...obr

F3 is playing about 25 feet behind the bag and BU is slightly further back in A
Lefthanded batter hits a hot grounder down the line, over the base where F3 makes a great diving stop.
BU sees its fair, makes proper voice mechanic (meaning none), and just points with his left arm FOUL....uuuuggghhh....
F3, who has heard nothing, knows its a fair ball and it might be a close play (pitcher didn't cover) and runs to first only to see that the B/R has stopped running. F3 steps on the bag and the BU takes a couple steps toward the base and gives an out mechanic....

COMMENCE CRAPHOUSE



I am UIC and ,without being asked, walk up the 1B line to talk to BU who has just said, "What the hell did I just do?" loud enough for the offensive dugout to hear...needless to say he was embarrassed....
If anyone cares I will tell you how we fixed it later but I am interested in how you guys would have fixed it.
Stay with out or call it a foul ball?

If the ball was clearly fair you have to stay with the call. All players have a responsibility to know what the situation is. Screaming foul (since this was close) would be expected. He may have signalled but he didn't verbally call it which would have been expected by both teams. Poor mechanics no question. If the ball was indeed fair the out is the correct call. BR may or may not have seen the foul signal. You don't know that for certain. No matter what you do you're in trouble. Declaring the ball "foul" almost amounts to a "do over". Eat the crow and make the correct call.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by gordon30307

If the ball was clearly fair you have to stay with the call. All players have a responsibility to know what the situation is. Screaming foul (since this was close) would be expected. He may have signalled but he didn't verbally call it which would have been expected by both teams. Poor mechanics no question. If the ball was indeed fair the out is the correct call. BR may or may not have seen the foul signal. You don't know that for certain. No matter what you do you're in trouble. Declaring the ball "foul" almost amounts to a "do over". Eat the crow and make the correct call.

WHAT?

It was called foul. The runner stopped. The craphouse happened because they saw the foul call.

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

WHAT?

It was called foul. The runner stopped. The craphouse happened because they saw the foul call.

It wasn't "called foul" it was signalled foul I don't know about you but I'm going to be yelling foul on close ones down the line. Both teams expect this. BR may or may not have seen ( he probably did but he also could have been throwing a hissy fit because the first baseman made a great play) the signal and we know for a fact the first baseman did not see the signal. If the ball was clearly fair (which it apparently was) have the balls to make the correct call. Admit your mistake and play on.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by gordon30307

It wasn't "called foul" it was signalled foul

You are missing the point.

Whether you call FOUL or SIGNAL FOUL = FOUL

Example: PU puts the "stop sign up" towards F1.

That means we have TIME and DO NOT PITCH. The PU does need to say anything.

Bottom Line: Rightly or wrongly when the players hear or see an umpire signal FOUL they STOP.

There are those rare instances (in both the LLWS and a ML baseball game) where a FOUL call was changed to fair.

The ball in this play is FOUL. BU admitted mistake (hey it happens) now time to move on.

Pete Booth

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by gordon30307

It wasn't "called foul" it was signalled foul

This man doesn't.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

This man doesn't.

You are correct. The sooner he gets off the 'fairness' kick, the better off he will be.

'It aint fair!' is a whiny coach's crutch. Don't use it.

[umpjayfire]

Originally Posted by gordon30307

If the ball was clearly fair you have to stay with the call. All players have a responsibility to know what the situation is. Screaming foul (since this was close) would be expected. He may have signalled but he didn't verbally call it which would have been expected by both teams. Poor mechanics no question. If the ball was indeed fair the out is the correct call. BR may or may not have seen the foul signal. You don't know that for certain. No matter what you do you're in trouble. Declaring the ball "foul" almost amounts to a "do over". Eat the crow and make the correct call.

i think you are saying that we should have called the B/R out...he saw the foul point so he stopped. (he thought he knew the situation)...F3 didn't hear foul and saw a fair ball so he thought he knew the situation...the ball was fair but not 'obvious' to everyone i.e. a nutcutter....when you say 'eat the crow and make the correct call', i am not sure what that should be that is why i am asking

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by umpjayfire

i think you are saying that we should have called the B/R out...he saw the foul point so he stopped. (he thought he knew the situation)...F3 didn't hear foul and saw a fair ball so he thought he knew the situation...the ball was fair but not 'obvious' to everyone i.e. a nutcutter....when you say 'eat the crow and make the correct call', i am not sure what that should be that is why i am asking

If the ball was indeed "fair" have the balls to make the correct call which is "out". Close ones down the line aren't you yelling "foul" and isn't that what both teams expect? I rest my case.

[LittleLeagueBob]

Originally Posted by gordon30307

If the ball was clearly fair you have to stay with the call. All players have a responsibility to know what the situation is. Screaming foul (since this was close) would be expected. He may have signalled but he didn't verbally call it which would have been expected by both teams. Poor mechanics no question. If the ball was indeed fair the out is the correct call. BR may or may not have seen the foul signal. You don't know that for certain. No matter what you do you're in trouble. Declaring the ball "foul" almost amounts to a "do over". Eat the crow and make the correct call.

Gordon -

Altho the OP states OBR, I'm posting the FED case play here to give some guidance on what they want us to do in essentially the same situation. I think the Major League Umpire Manual has something silimar in it, but I don't have a copy - prehaps someone else can post that so you can see what OBR has to say...

2.16.1 SITUATION B: On a count of 1-ball, 2-strikes, B1 hits a ground ball down the third-base line and the umpire inadvertently declares “foul ball.” F6 fields the ball in fair territory and throws to F3. RULING: The ball is dead immediately once it hits the ground; B1 returns to bat with a count of 1-2.

[Paul L]

The proper foul mechanic is raising both arms in the air and verbalizing "foul". Right? BU did not use either mechanic, just pointed with his left arm, presumedly toward foul territory. If memory serves, the foul mechanic was changed many years ago precisely to avoid accidental foul calls.
The proper fair mechanic is pointing towards fair territory and verbalizing nothing. This is what BU did, except for the accidental point in the wrong direction. So why is BR entitled to think foul was called?
Well, I guess I know the answer to that question. If the commonly understood foul signal caused BR to stop running, then BU has to eat the foul call.
But I was surprised no one mentioned the wrong foul signal. Is pointing foul, rather than raising both arms, the proper signal anywhere?

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Paul L

The proper foul mechanic is raising both arms in the air and verbalizing "foul". Right? BU did not use either mechanic, just pointed with his left arm, presumedly toward foul territory. If memory serves, the foul mechanic was changed many years ago precisely to avoid accidental foul calls.
The proper fair mechanic is pointing towards fair territory and verbalizing nothing. This is what BU did, except for the accidental point in the wrong direction. So why is BR entitled to think foul was called?
Well, I guess I know the answer to that question. If the commonly understood foul signal caused BR to stop running, then BU has to eat the foul call.
But I was surprised no one mentioned the wrong foul signal. Is pointing foul, rather than raising both arms, the proper signal anywhere?

Both hands in the air is "time". Pointing is the indicator.

[chuckfan1]

Gordon...

If someone stops "playing" in this case, because of an umpires signal of foul, then its a foul ball. The Umpire who made the erroneus call has to eat it, and take the crap. This wasnt a ball hit in the gap, where no one is going to make a "foul" call. This was a ball up the line, maybe BR had his head down, whatever, its foul.
And your going to let the play stand? Your going to most likely have a bigger sh*thouse.

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by chuckfan1

Gordon...

If someone stops "playing" in this case, because of an umpires signal of foul, then its a foul ball. The Umpire who made the erroneus call has to eat it, and take the crap. This wasnt a ball hit in the gap, where no one is going to make a "foul" call. This was a ball up the line, maybe BR had his head down, whatever, its foul.
And your going to let the play stand? Your going to most likely have a bigger sh*thouse.

Hey the first baseman didn't stop playing. Not my problem BR didn't run the ball out. It's a bad situation granted. But if the ball was indeed "fair" the only correct call is "out". Don't you scream "foul" on close ones down the line. Don't both teams expect to hear foul verbalized on close ones? I rest my case.