3rd -to - 1st Fake: Hands?

[cmcramer]

Fed:

Does a right handed pitcher have to 'break his hands' apart during the fake to third portion of an otherwise legal 3rd - to - 1st fake? How about during any other permitted fake?

Can he just fake with his step, his shoulders, his head?


Thanks!

[bossman72]

A fake does not require arm movement, only a legal step.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by cmcramer

Fed:

Does a right handed pitcher have to 'break his hands' apart during the fake to third portion of an otherwise legal 3rd - to - 1st fake? How about during any other permitted fake?

Can he just fake with his step, his shoulders, his head?

Thanks!

Yes, hands must break apart in 3-1 feint, no to stepping off (hands must also break apart), no to shoulder feints after initial move to come set, and yes to head fakes. He may move his head.

[bigda65]

SA
Does fed really require hands to come apart?
If he didn't disengage, then restart, then I agree.

Or is this another FED difference between OBR?

[SAump]

Originally Posted by bigda65

SA
Does fed really require hands to come apart?
If he didn't disengage, then restart, then I agree.
Or is this another FED difference between OBR?

BRD 217, pg 132; Feint Defn: Movement that simulates the start of a pitch or throw to a base. "Arm motion is not required."

BRD 359, pg 223; FED: the pitcher must step ... when throwing or "legally" feinting.
BRD 362, pg 225; FED: to 3B, may do that "with or without disengaging" ...

BRD 359, pg 223; NCAA: the pitcher must step before he throws, but the step is not required for a "legal" feint.
BRD 362, pg 225; NCAA: to 3B must disengage the PP during the feint before he will be allowed to throw (or feint) to 1B.

Now if he steps off the back of the rubber first, then this same move is a legal move to 3B. F1 must seperate his hands when stepping to 3B and before turning to throw to 1B, a "legal" feint. Now I have to ask those salivating ummps out there, if F1 did not seperate his hands, where's the feint?

Interesting discussion: http://www.baseball-excellence.com/s...m=2&Topic=7992

Ever try to throw a baseball w/your hands togther?
A "legal" feint is an attempt to legally deceive the runner into thinking F1 will throw towards the base.
What's missing from this argument? Arm motion. How does one throw or feint a throw w/out any arm motion?
Pitching, by position, is all about arm motion. How about a feint of a throw?
Same requirement, arm motion to seperate his hands and no requirement to complete the release.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by bigda65

SA
Does fed really require hands to come apart?
If he didn't disengage, then restart, then I agree.

Or is this another FED difference between OBR?

Since arm motion isn't required, there's no need to separate the hands on the feint.

[SAump]

Disengagement isn't over!

Pitchers are allowed to seperate their hands during a feint. This is legal under FED Rule 6-2-4e.
It is a balk if he takes a hand off the ball
... unless he ... steps toward and feints a throw ... 3B.

I said it was a good question w/ a very complicated answer.
And where does it say that a "legal" feint doesn't require any arm motion?
Is it written in a FED, NCAA or OBR rulebook?

[bigda65]

Ok,

So he steps toward 3B, doesn't throw, disengage, or seperate his hands. Now what??

Wouldn't this be a dont do that?
Hey pitch, step off and start over, or is this a balk in FED?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SAump

Disengagement isn't over!

Pitchers are allowed to seperate their hands during a feint. This is legal under FED Rule 6-2-4e.
It is a balk if he takes a hand off the ball
... unless he ... steps toward and feints a throw ... 3B.

I said it was a good question w/ a very complicated answer.
And where does it say that a "legal" feint doesn't require any arm motion?
Is it written in a FED, NCAA or OBR rulebook?

Most of the time, violations are listed in the book; if it's not written, it's legal.

Note that the the balk rule (6-2-4b) in FED lists "failing to STEP toward a base ..."; it says nothing about "failing to make an arm motion associated with a throw"

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by bigda65

Ok,

So he steps toward 3B, doesn't throw, disengage, or seperate his hands. Now what??

Now the "pitching cycle" starts anew. Yes, at some point, the hands must separate. They need not separate as part of the step / feint to third, though (and that was the OP). IF F1 maintians contact with the rubber during the feint, and tries to get immediately back in the set position, call time and get him to take the rubber properly. It's not a balk.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Now the "pitching cycle" starts anew. Yes, at some point, the hands must separate. They need not separate as part of the step / feint to third, though (and that was the OP). IF F1 maintians contact with the rubber during the feint, and tries to get immediately back in the set position, call time and get him to take the rubber properly. It's not a balk.

Exactly. The reason for the rule is to prevent a quick pitch, not to penalize someone for failure to separate the hands. Timeframe to separate? Before he takes his position again on the rubber.

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by cmcramer

Fed:

Does a right handed pitcher have to 'break his hands' apart during the fake to third portion of an otherwise legal 3rd - to - 1st fake? How about during any other permitted fake?

Can he just fake with his step, his shoulders, his head?


Thanks!

This was the exact same play that occured in a Braves/Padres game earlier this month. Braves pitcher Tim Hudson tried the third-to-first pickoff move we all know and love and was balked by third base umpire Wally Bell. The ESPN Baseball Tonight "analysts" claimed he was balked because a feint to third requires arm motion which Hudson did not do. In reality, he was balked for not stepping direct to third base. Braves manager Bobby Cox came out to argue, and on the MLB video I saw he can be clearly seen trying to show Bell the footprint that Hudson left on the step to third. Cox was ejected for the 137th time.

Crcramer, I see you are relatively new to the site. Your first lesson: Never, ever listen to the ESPN analysts when it comes to rules!