Appeal questions

Originally Posted by thumpferee

Just a thought.

If BR gets into a pickle between home and 1st, can 1st base be tagged for an out, or does the BR have to be tagged?

Surely you jest!

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally Posted by rei

Because for the sake of a force play, once the runner passes the base, he is assumed "safe" until a proper appeal is made.

Now, you could have a situation where, runner misses 2nd, they throw back and try to tag him while fielder is standing on base and he secured the ball standing on base before runner returned and play was made, still safe, then the fielder appeals him missing second.

I am banging him!

Absolutely right!

Same as missing 1st before the ball arrives. Runner is safe until appealed.

With only a slight extention, runner misses second on his way to 3rd is considered to have touched until appealed ... therefore tag him or appeal.

[greymule]

Haven't heard from you in a long while, DownTownTonyBrown! Were you on a secret mission somewhere?

[Illini_Ref]

I understand that many of you are basing this on the interpretation that a runner has obtained a base (and if forced, force removed) when a runner passes a base whether touching it or not.

However, is this a NF interpretation and if so, where can I find it?

Also, nobody has addressed the ruling in 8.2.2E. It clearly states that a runner returning to touch a missed base needs to be tagged UNLESS it is a force, then the base only need be tagged. That implies that a runner missing a forced base does NOT remove the force.

Using this ruling I get this:

R1 on first, batter hit a grounder to third, R1 is stealing on the pitch and the play is at second. R1 beats the throw and slides into second and misses the bag and passes it. R1 is diving back when the second baseman with the ball steps on second.

By the case ruling the runner is out without a tag. Am I reading that wrong????

[mbyron]

I'll reiterate what Bob J. said above, but divide the question in two.

1. for the purpose of a missed base appeal, passing the base does not remove the force.
2. for the purpose of determining whether the runner beat the throw, passing the base does remove the force.

By (1), to appeal the missed base, stepping on the base AND saying "he missed the base" (or otherwise making it obvious that the defense was appealing) would suffice.

By (2), to make a play on the runner, the runner would have to be tagged.

[Illini_Ref]

Nobody is addressing the case in question. The casebook is clear that a runner returning to a missed base (un-relaxed action) has to be tagged UNLESS it is a force play, in which case a tag is not necessary. Why am I so confused by that?

So what mbyron is saying that if the play is at second and the runner overslides and misses the base, the force is off. However, is he is forced to second and rounds without a play and misses, the force is still on? Do I have that right?

[Illini_Ref]

So....................let's say: Runner forced to second. Throw to second. Runner beats the throw and slides past and misses the base. He is scrambling back. He has to be tagged as the force was removed. Correct?

Now........ Runner forced to second. Throw goes to first and BR is safe. Runner has rounded second after missing second base. Runner stops and starts to return. Throw from first to second. Is the force still on? Is is different because the play wasn't initially at second? Runner still have to be tagged?

[mbyron]

It's not that complicated. What is the fielder doing? If he's playing on the runner scrambling back, he must tag him. If he's appealing the missed base, all he needs to do is touch the base and say "he missed the base" (or otherwise make clear that it's an appeal).

[Illini_Ref]

This is my last post on this thread (in the background is heard cheering)! The question(s) below was sent to Brad Stearns, the lead interpreter in Illinois for the IHSA. The question is in italics and his response is in bold. This squares with what most on this thread has to say. This is how I'm calling it now since my state's lead interpreter wants it this way. Any reference to FOTG in the following is a reference to the moniker of someone on another board who asked the question to Brad.

Some of us are having a discussion about that status of a runner who misses a base to which he is forced. Assume the following:

• R1, R3, 2 outs
• R1 stealing, ground ball to F4 who throws late to F6 at 2B
• R1 slides past 2B without touching it. He scrambles back.
• R3 scores

The questions I have are these:

1. Does R1’s passing of 2B without touching it remove the force out?
2. Must F6 tag R1 as he scrambles back toward the base?
3. If the answers to questions 1 & 2 are “yes,” is R3’s score a timing play?
4. What is the appropriate mechanic/signal when a runner misses a base (are there different mechanics for different sitches)?

You bring up a very valid situation and list of questions. The answers are directly related to the High School (NFHS) appeal rule which has changed several times throughout the history of NFHS baseball rules.

If you will remember, many years ago, the NFHS took the traditional baseball appeal rule out of the High School Rule book. For all intents and purposes, the appeal rule was eliminated, and umpires were directed to automatically call a runner out after play was terminated if he missed a base or failed to properly re-tag a base after a catch of a batted ball. This was predicated on the fact that umpires observed the infraction, then had the guts to call it, when a runner missed a base, or left a base too soon, etc.

For the most part this rule was unpopular with coaches, players, and umpires...if for no other reason that it just wasn’t “baseball” to have no appeals. Finally in the early 2000’s, the “no appeal” rule was taken out of the rule book and replaced with a new high school version, which allowed for not only the traditional type of appeal, but also a dead ball appeal by a coach or player, which is in the current NFHS rule book now.

However, along the way there were a couple of interpretations which sort of modified the rule. The first interpretation was the automatic inadvertent appeal. Here is an example of how this interpretation worked:

Let’s say a batter hits a gapper into right center for a triple. The BR misses 2nd while advancing to 3rd. The throw comes into F4 from the outfield, and as F4 runs the ball in, he casually (or inadvertently) touches 2nd base. With the new interpretation, even though F4 had no intention of making a legitimate appeal on a missed base, the fact that he touched 2nd with the ball in his possession, it automatically resulted in an inadvertent appeal play, and the umpire (assuming he saw the BR miss the base) would call the runner out on the inadvertent appeal.

Needlessly to say, that was not a very popular rule either, and it lasted only about a year or two, when the inadvertent appeal was rescinded, I’m guessing about 3 years ago. However, at our State Interpreters meeting the year it was rescinded, it brought up an interesting discussion in which the interpreters had a difficult time trying to reach unanimous agreement on the interpretation. Here is a situation:

Batter hits a ground ball to F6, who makes a perfect throw to F3 who is in contact with 1st. However, the BR beats the throw, but does not touch, ie., steps over, 1st base. F3 has no idea that the BR did not touch first. What is the call? Since the inadvertent appeal rule has now been rescinded, unless a proper appeal is made, the BR is safe at 1st.

But the discussion didn’t end there. Another situation: With a R1 at 2nd, base hit to the outfield, a throw comes into the catcher resulting in a very close play at the plate (assume no obstruction on the part of the catcher). F2 misses the tag at the plate, but R1 also misses touching the plate. What is the umpire’s call? We all were pretty much in agreement that the umpire calls nothing, until either F2 tags R1, or R1 comes back to touch the plate. If neither occurs then the run scores until if and when a proper appeal is made.

The discussion continued. On our previous situation on the BR at 1st, does the umpire make no call or does he call the runner safe at first? The answer from our Head Interpreter: umpire calls him “safe” (until or unless a proper appeal is made). The discussion raged on. Why the difference between a no-call on the play at the plate, and a safe call on the play at first. And the answer from our Head Interpreter: “That’s baseball!”

Bottom line: After a lot of discussion, this is what the the official Illinois (IHSA) Ruling is...and you won’t find this specifically in the Rule book, nor to the best of my knowledge in the Case book (emphasis FOTG):

Once a runner has passed a base, he is ruled to have achieved that base. Then all other rules apply, including put-outs and appeals. If the play is a force play, the umpire will make a call (and we all know a play on a batted ball by the BR at first is the same as a force out, except that he also has the right to over-run 1st without liability of being put out unless he makes an initial attempt to advance). If the play is not a force out (such as our play at the plate), then the umpire makes no call until the runner either touches the base or is subsequently tagged out.

So after that history of the appeal rule, here are the answers to the four questions on your situation:
1. Yes, the force out is removed.
2. Yes, the runner must be tagged to record the out.
3. Since the force was removed, yes, R3’s score is a timing play.
4. There is no mechanic that the umpire uses to indicate a runner missed a base. (Revert to the “Bottom line” paragraph above.) Since the initial play at 2nd was a force play, the umpire would initially call the runner “safe”...then “out” if and when the tag is applied. (emphasis FOTG) However, there is still another possibility, if the defense properly appeals that on the initial play at 2nd the runner missed the base, the R1 would be out on appeal on the initial force play, and R3’s score would not count, as no preceding run can score when the 3rd out is made on a force play. (emphasis FOTG)

[mbyron]

The only thing I disagree with here is answer 3: since the runner was forced to advance and missed the base, if he is called out on (missed base) appeal and that's the 3rd out, the run would NOT score and it is NOT a timing play.

[PeteBooth]

IMO, I think what you are referring to is the advantageous 4th out appeal.

Example: R1/R3 2 outs

Ground ball to F6 who throws to F4 to try and get the force on R1. R1 slides past the base (R3 scores) In scrambling back R1 is tagged for out number 3.

At this point the Run scores.

Now the defense can make the advantageous 4th out appeal to cancel R3's run.

Pete Booth

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by mbyron

The only thing I disagree with here is answer 3: since the runner was forced to advance and missed the base, if he is called out on (missed base) appeal and that's the 3rd out, the run would NOT score and it is NOT a timing play.

I believe the answer to question three is stating that if the runner is tagged out the force has been removed. However, if he is out on appeal, no runs can score because it was a 'force play' appeal.

-Josh