Appeal questions

[Illini_Ref]

Appeals have always confused me. Let's assume NF rules.

1. Runner misses first and is diving back. Tag or no? In one case (not this sitch) in the case book, this is referred to as a force play. I have always been taught that the BR to first is NOT a force play, and it is not by the NF definition of force play. If it is not, doesn't the BR have to be tagged?

2. Case in the case book as follows. Runner on second. Ball to LF. The LFer throws home too late, but the runner to the plate misses the plate. Catcher with the ball steps on the plate, before the runner starts to return and throws to second trying to get the BR. The case book says that upon proper appeal the runner is out. What the heck does that mean. Does the catcher has to say "he missed the plate" then throw to second. Or can he step on the plate, throw to second and then say "he missed the plate"?

3. What about the BR who hits a grounder passes first without touching, then the first baseman catches the ball while touching the bag? Out? Or do you make him appeal verbally? I was taught that if the runner is a step past the bag when the throw arrives you signal safe and wait for an appeal. If it is bang-bang you signal out. I know there is a sitch similar to this, but that play has the first baseman catching NOT touching, then stepping on the base which constitutes an appeal.

4. Play at the plate. Catcher misses with the tag and the runner misses home. Signal or no? I had a NCAA umpire tell me that you HAVE to signal if there was a play. In this case you signal safe because the tag was missed. If there was no attempted tag you signal nothing. What if the runner crosses the plate and misses it and there is no play at all? I still signal safe.

Thoughts??????

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Illini_Ref

Appeals have always confused me. Let's assume NF rules.

1. Runner misses first and is diving back. Tag or no? In one case (not this sitch) in the case book, this is referred to as a force play. I have always been taught that the BR to first is NOT a force play, and it is not by the NF definition of force play. If it is not, doesn't the BR have to be tagged?

If the runner is attempting to return, he must be tagged.

2. Case in the case book as follows. Runner on second. Ball to LF. The LFer throws home too late, but the runner to the plate misses the plate. Catcher with the ball steps on the plate, before the runner starts to return and throws to second trying to get the BR. The case book says that upon proper appeal the runner is out. What the heck does that mean. Does the catcher has to say "he missed the plate" then throw to second. Or can he step on the plate, throw to second and then say "he missed the plate"?

The appeal must be obvious (which means more than "verbal") when /before / as it's made. If you know why F2 touched the plate, make the call. If you don't it wasn't obvious.

3. What about the BR who hits a grounder passes first without touching, then the first baseman catches the ball while touching the bag? Out? Or do you make him appeal verbally? I was taught that if the runner is a step past the bag when the throw arrives you signal safe and wait for an appeal. If it is bang-bang you signal out. I know there is a sitch similar to this, but that play has the first baseman catching NOT touching, then stepping on the base which constitutes an appeal.

Ignore that case play -- it's wrong. Again, the appeal must be obvious.

4. Play at the plate. Catcher misses with the tag and the runner misses home. Signal or no? I had a NCAA umpire tell me that you HAVE to signal if there was a play. In this case you signal safe because the tag was missed. If there was no attempted tag you signal nothing. What if the runner crosses the plate and misses it and there is no play at all? I still signal safe.

Thoughts??????

Do't make a call until the play is over. If both miss, the play isn't over.

[Illini_Ref]

Thank you Mr. Jenkins. Short easy to understand answers. Safe to say you do NOT dabble in politics???

[Illini_Ref]

Now if a runner who is forced to second misses second and is diving back all the fielder needs to do is tag the bag correct. This is a force play and the play is not over as the runner never touched. Correct?

[Illini_Ref]

Case 8.2.2 Situation E

RULING: Since the runner has initiated action to return, the defense must tag him unless it is a force play, in which case all they would need to do is touch the base with the ball.

Wouldn't my above post constitute a force play?

[TussAgee11]

If it's obvious that this is the reason the defense is touching the base, than yes.

If player misses 2nd, and the 2b is chasing him to go tag him, and steps on the base in doing so, its not a proper appeal. If he runs and touches 2nd, stops, and looks at you, then you have a proper appeal.

Correct?

[Illini_Ref]

a fielder HAS to tag a runner who missed a base IF the runner is attempting to get back to the base. However, this is not the case on a force play as the fielder only needs to touch the base with the ball.

My question is: Is the BR to first a force play? I don't think it is. By NF definition it is not. However, in one of their cases (not dealing with a missed first base) they refer to the BR to first as a "force out".

Which is it?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Illini_Ref

Case 8.2.2 Situation E

RULING: Since the runner has initiated action to return, the defense must tag him unless it is a force play, in which case all they would need to do is touch the base with the ball.

Wouldn't my above post constitute a force play?

Not as I read it. In your play, R1 has passed 2B, thus removing the force. He must be tagged off the base to record an out. With a runner scrambling back to the base, the defense must tag the runner.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Illini_Ref

a fielder HAS to tag a runner who missed a base IF the runner is attempting to get back to the base. However, this is not the case on a force play as the fielder only needs to touch the base with the ball.

My question is: Is the BR to first a force play? I don't think it is. By NF definition it is not. However, in one of their cases (not dealing with a missed first base) they refer to the BR to first as a "force out".

Which is it?

BR is not forced to 1B, since by definition a force play is on a runner who is forced to advance by the batter becoming a runner (this definition is the same in all codes).

BR to 1B has some similarities to a force play, and is sometimes treated as if it were. Call it a "quasi-force play" if you like. If you have the specific case play that's confusing you, we could try explaining that ruling.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

If it's obvious that this is the reason the defense is touching the base, than yes.

If player misses 2nd, and the 2b is chasing him to go tag him, and steps on the base in doing so, its not a proper appeal. If he runs and touches 2nd, stops, and looks at you, then you have a proper appeal.

Correct?

Not with the runner scrambling back to the base. Having passed 2B, he's removed the force. Now he's a runner off base and must be tagged.

[Illini_Ref]

Not trying to be argumentative here as I was taught just as you were, but.......

Why would the case 8.2.2E reference a force play when returning to touch a missed base if that is not possible. If passing a base and failing to touch it removes the force then why would they put the force play language in the case?

Anyone have a rules reference as to WHEN a force is removed?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Illini_Ref

Anyone have a rules reference as to WHEN a force is removed?

2-Play

It indicates the force is NOT removed (and, I agree that is true if there's a valid appeal. I'm not convinced stepping on the base makes it a valid appeal.)

[PeteBooth]

Although not mentioned in FED the terms "relaxed action" and "Unrelaxed action" aid an umpire in determining whether or not the fielder can simply touch the bag and make an appeal vs. tagging the runner which IMO I gather from your OP and posts that you are having trouble with.

Also, keep in mind that FED did away with the 'accidental appeal" 2-3 yrs. ago.

Generally speaking when action is "Un-Relaxed" ie; Runner scrambling back to the bag, the runner MUST be tagged in order to record the out.

When action is relaxed ie: R1 misses second base and is standing on third base. Then all the defense needs to do is tag the bag to record the out.

In addition the appeal does not have to be berbal but it MUST be an Unmistakable act. ie: one out R1. Hit and run and B1 hits a line shot right at F4 who simply flips to F3 to get the easy DP. That is an unmistakable act on the part of the defense to get R1.

Pete Booth

[thumpferee]

Just a thought.

If BR gets into a pickle between home and 1st, can 1st base be tagged for an out, or does the BR have to be tagged?

Originally Posted by Illini_Ref

Case 8.2.2 Situation E

RULING: Since the runner has initiated action to return, the defense must tag him unless it is a force play, in which case all they would need to do is touch the base with the ball.

Wouldn't my above post constitute a force play?

Because for the sake of a force play, once the runner passes the base, he is assumed "safe" until a proper appeal is made.

Now, you could have a situation where, runner misses 2nd, they throw back and try to tag him while fielder is standing on base and he secured the ball standing on base before runner returned and play was made, still safe, then the fielder appeals him missing second.

I am banging him!