Obstruction question

[Gmoore]

Does the reference say to apply the call to Fed or are you assuming that that is the intent?

For the NFHS umpires it does not tell us to apply NCAA ruling to a Fed Game
and I am not being stubborn or not willing to apply the interp. that way... but for the "elders" here please explain "C" to me please

"c. any runner may advance when awarded a base(s) for an act which occurred before the ball became dead provided any base in (b) above is retouched and all bases are touched in their proper order(8-1-2,8-2-1,8-3,8-3-3d, note)"

I just have a a problem ingoring a rule in Fed about missing a base when the penalty is you will be called out upon appeal,
Just looking for some insight

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by Gmoore

Does the reference say to apply the call to Fed or are you assuming that that is the intent?

For the NFHS umpires it does not tell us to apply NCAA ruling to a Fed Game
and I am not being stubborn or not willing to apply the interp. that way... but for the "elders" here please explain "C" to me please

"c. any runner may advance when awarded a base(s) for an act which occurred before the ball became dead provided any base in (b) above is retouched and all bases are touched in their proper order(8-1-2,8-2-1,8-3,8-3-3d, note)"

I just have a a problem ingoring a rule in Fed about missing a base when the penalty is you will be called out upon appeal,
Just looking for some insight

I was assuming that was the intent of that post. I am getting some additional opinions of this situation from my local association. At this point I think I've covered everything I can think of.

-Josh

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Gmoore

Does the reference say to apply the call to Fed or are you assuming that that is the intent?

For the NFHS umpires it does not tell us to apply NCAA ruling to a Fed Game
and I am not being stubborn or not willing to apply the interp. that way... but for the "elders" here please explain "C" to me please

"c. any runner may advance when awarded a base(s) for an act which occurred before the ball became dead provided any base in (b) above is retouched and all bases are touched in their proper order(8-1-2,8-2-1,8-3,8-3-3d, note)"

In FED, if the runner is on or beyond the "next base" when the ball is declared dead, it's too late to go back and correct the error (missed base, or base left too soon). There's an exception for a ball intentionally carried or thrown out of play (intentionally done just to prevent the runner from returning).

So, in the OP, if the ball becomes dead at the end of the play (and it neend't become dead, but it might become dead) with BR standing on second, it's too late for BR to retouch first.

Given umpjong's clarification (BR passed first and *could have* touched it, but didn't), then the obstruction didn't *cause* the missed base, so BR is out on the appeal.

[johnnyg08]

yikes, you might have an ejection here or a coach who screws you on their rating (in MN coaches rate us for FED)...even if you get it right.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

yikes, you might have an ejection here or a coach who screws you on their rating (in MN coaches rate us for FED)...even if you get it right.

Any umpires who cares how a coach will rate them while working a game should pack it in, now.

I had 2.5 visits from a coach yesterday. One on a balk he didn't see, one between innings on a good pickoff move from the other pitcher that he claimed was a "double move" and a balk (it wasn't) and the third on a play at second where the ball hit the heel of F4's glove and fell out and they wanted the out "on the transfer" even though F4's other hand was 2 feet from the glove and the ball never even got in F4's glove. That was a half-visit, cause my partner stopped him before he even came out and told him to get back in the dugout. Seriously, the ball hit the heel of the glove and fell to the ground and there was never a motion to try to get the ball out of the glove, mainly cause it was never in there.

I had a flawless game yesterday and the coach will rate me low. He should rate me highly because I didn't eject him on the second visit, and I could have, had I been so inclined, but instead used game management skills to get him the hell off the field.

If I let myself care about ratings, I'll lose my mind. I'm an above average umpire, according to the coaches ratings. Barely. If I was rated any higher, I'd be wondering what I'm doing wrong. I only care that my ratings are high enough to get me a sectional (level before state tournament) every season. It seems they are, for now.

[CO ump]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Any umpires who cares how a coach will rate them while working a game should pack it in, now.

I had 2.5 visits from a coach yesterday. One on a balk he didn't see, one between innings on a good pickoff move from the other pitcher that he claimed was a "double move" and a balk (it wasn't) and the third on a play at second where the ball hit the heel of F4's glove and fell out and they wanted the out "on the transfer" even though F4's other hand was 2 feet from the glove and the ball never even got in F4's glove. That was a half-visit, cause my partner stopped him before he even came out and told him to get back in the dugout. Seriously, the ball hit the heel of the glove and fell to the ground and there was never a motion to try to get the ball out of the glove, mainly cause it was never in there.

I had a flawless game yesterday and the coach will rate me low. He should rate me highly because I didn't eject him on the second visit, and I could have, had I been so inclined, but instead used game management skills to get him the hell off the field.

If I let myself care about ratings, I'll lose my mind. I'm an above average umpire, according to the coaches ratings. Barely. If I was rated any higher, I'd be wondering what I'm doing wrong. I only care that my ratings are high enough to get me a sectional (level before state tournament) every season. It seems they are, for now.

I had a game this week that may rival your low rating.

Play one
Home team gets picked off at first. Rather routine but 1st base coach wanted to make an issue that just because the ball beats the runner doesn't mean he's out. No biggie.

Play two
Next inning home team on defense. Attempted pick off at first. Throw beats R1 but tag does not. "Safe". From the dugout I hear that I called them out on the same play etc etc

Play three

Home team on def. R1 stealing 2nd. throw beats runner but a bit high and F6 misses tag as he swipes. "Safe no tag" I'm sure from 120' it looked like a tag Home team not happy

Play 4

Home team on def.
Attempted pickoff at 2nd. F6 busting to the bag, throws a little behind him but clearly had R2 leaning the wrong way. F6 reaches back gets the ball swipes the tag and I clearly see daylight between glove and R2. "Safe No tag"
Home team clearly not happy.

Play 5

Bottom of 8th 1 out R1 down by one.

Attempted steal, throw to the 1st base side. F6 makes a great play gloving ball while jumping over runner. he gloves it right at the hip of R1 and while airborne applies tag on the backside of R1s hip while R1 is a good foot off base. I give it my best crow hop and bang him "OUT"

1st base coach crosses into fair territory coming towards me letting me know it was a bad call and I appropriately point to him and tell him to get back in his box. I love doing that, it's the same thing I tell my dog at home after he pees on the floor.
HC comes out to ask what I saw and then tells me how disappointed he is in me. "You're better than this, I'm really disappointed in you. There was no tag"

Play 6

Next batter doubles.
After play is relaxed 1st base coach yells at me "The game should be tied, that one's on you"

That's when I ejected him.

What do you think my rating will look like from that team?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by CO ump

I had a game this week that may rival your low rating.


Play 5
"You're better than this, I'm really disappointed in you. There was no tag"

I'd probably say as I was walking away, "Yeah, with your superior vantage point way over there in the dugout, you can tell that. I wish my vision was as good as yours."

I'm a bit burned out with all the stupidity I've seen this season, I gotta tell you.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by CO ump

What do you think my rating will look like from that team?

Not good. Wish we could rate coaches and have their job depend on it...

Coaches rating umpires is the stupidest idea. It is done in CT as well. Why not have a couple more evaluators that go around who actually know umpiring come rate you? Take a test before every season that gives you a "rules" grade?

Having coaches rate umpires creates a systematic breakdown of incentives for the umpire.

I recall when I was in high school, I was the head basketball manager. Our HC was a big whiner, and he made it my duty to fill out the evaluations every week because "they don't listen to me anymore". I told him back "they never should have."

Same thing applies to baseball.

[Gmoore]

Bob- I agree that the rule states he can't return when the ball is dead if he is on 2nd, But just to continue this are you going to ingore the Obstruction the defense hindered the runner.

[charliej47]

The best I can remember was it is interpretate as the runner can not reach the base with out stopping or returning. we were discussing this and the opinion was if the runner can take "a step" and still get to the base then he is required to otherwise the obstruction prevented him from getting to the base at all.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Gmoore

Bob- I agree that the rule states he can't return when the ball is dead if he is on 2nd, But just to continue this are you going to ingore the Obstruction the defense hindered the runner.

I'm calling it according to my previous answers.