Coach Fines in Ohio

[NEohioref]

http://www.cleveland.com/hssports/pl...200.xml&coll=2

[RPatrino]

Inexperienced officials who 'have it out' for a particular coach? Does that sound oxymoronic or what?

[jicecone]

How about some incentive here. The official that tosses the coach gets $50.00.

"No hard feelings coach," "Strickly a business deal."

Have a nice day!!!!

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

To quote the Green H.S. girls' basketball coach Tony Whitmer: "They are finding more ways to chase good people out of coaching and increase the turnover in coaching," he said. "What's next, fines for officials? Fans? Players? I'll bet there are no fines for the officials."


Here is my response to Mr. Whitmer:

The OhioHSAA membership is made up of both public and private schools. I cannot speak for the private schools, but I do not know of a single public school in Ohio where assistant coaches are not paid; assistant coaches are employees of the school district for which they coach. And yes, officials can and are fined by the OhioHSAA for certain infractions, which can range from double booking, failure to fulfill a contract, failure to file an player and/or coach ejection report, or wearing an improper uniform. Regarding the last two general examples the I gave I can give specific examples. An entire football crew was fined and denied post-season tournament assignments for one year because the crew failed to file an ejection report. Two soccer officials were fined $100 each five years ago for wearing yellow soccer officiating shirts when the the only approved shirts were the black with white collar and cuffs. The best part of the soccer officials infractions was the fact that the officials were from Columbus (OhioHSAA headquarters are located in Columbus), the game was in Columbus on the same side of town that the OhioHSAA offices are located, and OhioHSAA VIP from the state headquarters was in attendance at the game.

MTD, Sr.

[jkumpire]

With all due respect to Mark, I think this is an awful idea.

First, I know of very few ejections in Ohio of coaches. This is overkill. I would like to see how many players and coaches are ejected in Ohio these days. The number is fewer than it used to be. And by putting this kind of power in the hands of officials, you are upsetting the balance between coaches and officials. Right now, the threat of ejection is strong enough to control coaches. Now an incompetent or hot headed official, or worst, one who makes an honest mistake, can cost a coach, money, games, and a significant amount of time. The number of coaches and players ejected used to be published by OHSAA, they are not made public anymore.

In basketball, it can even be worse than baseball since the Head Coach can take be ejected for actions of other people than himself. And while the head Coach is the responsible person for the behavior of the whole team, everyone he coaches are perfect angels every day, and never will do anything wrong in the heat of the moment.

Second, if they are made to take some kind of online course, it will be awful. The online courses I have seen for officials are not very good in my opinion, I doubt if they will be better for coaches. And last time I checked, a lot of coaches have college degrees which include coaching classes, psychology of coaching classes, etc. What they will get is a bunch of PC drivel which is counter-productive.

Third, OHSAA is showing that they are starting to think like a government bureaucracy. Most specifically in this case, what ever happened to local control and discipline of coaches and staff? What do you need an Athletic Director and Principal for if the state body is going to run discipline, and fines for coaches? I'm sorry, but if an ejection happens in Ohio now, you are suspended for a length of time. If it happens twice, the coach and principal see the head of OHSAA. In 30 years of watching OHSAA sports I know of nobody ejected 3 times in a season. That is punishment enough, and the center of punishment was left to the local school district where it belongs. OHSAA is going to far in this case, in my opinion. And the monetary fines are totally wrong in my opinion.

AD's and local school administrators are the people responsible for the actions, and hiring and firing of coaches under the leadership of a local school board. Not the OHSAA. But the OHSAA is becoming just like the Ohio state government: Destroying education in Ohio by ending local control and making every one into a one size fit all school program, OHSAA may well be starting on the same path.

I have more reasons why I don't like this, but that is enough for now.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

With all due respect to Mark, I think this is an awful idea.

First, I know of very few ejections in Ohio of coaches. This is overkill. I would like to see how many players and coaches are ejected in Ohio these days. The number is fewer than it used to be. And by putting this kind of power in the hands of officials, you are upsetting the balance between coaches and officials. Right now, the threat of ejection is strong enough to control coaches. Now an incompetent or hot headed official, or worst, one who makes an honest mistake, can cost a coach, money, games, and a significant amount of time. The number of coaches and players ejected used to be published by OHSAA, they are not made public anymore.

In basketball, it can even be worse than baseball since the Head Coach can take be ejected for actions of other people than himself. And while the head Coach is the responsible person for the behavior of the whole team, everyone he coaches are perfect angels every day, and never will do anything wrong in the heat of the moment.

Second, if they are made to take some kind of online course, it will be awful. The online courses I have seen for officials are not very good in my opinion, I doubt if they will be better for coaches. And last time I checked, a lot of coaches have college degrees which include coaching classes, psychology of coaching classes, etc. What they will get is a bunch of PC drivel which is counter-productive.

Third, OHSAA is showing that they are starting to think like a government bureaucracy. Most specifically in this case, what ever happened to local control and discipline of coaches and staff? What do you need an Athletic Director and Principal for if the state body is going to run discipline, and fines for coaches? I'm sorry, but if an ejection happens in Ohio now, you are suspended for a length of time. If it happens twice, the coach and principal see the head of OHSAA. In 30 years of watching OHSAA sports I know of nobody ejected 3 times in a season. That is punishment enough, and the center of punishment was left to the local school district where it belongs. OHSAA is going to far in this case, in my opinion. And the monetary fines are totally wrong in my opinion.

AD's and local school administrators are the people responsible for the actions, and hiring and firing of coaches under the leadership of a local school board. Not the OHSAA. But the OHSAA is becoming just like the Ohio state government: Destroying education in Ohio by ending local control and making every one into a one size fit all school program, OHSAA may well be starting on the same path.

I have more reasons why I don't like this, but that is enough for now.

Don't act like an idiot on the field and you won't get tossed. An "incompetent" official or even one that misses a call doesn't mean a coach gets to be an idiot.

I can honestly say I used to work in a place where the coach got fined for being ejected. I ejected no more or less quickly then than I do now. If you can't do the time or pay the fine, see my first sentence.

[mbyron]

The state association has increased the disincentive for coaches to get ejected. That's their business. I will have a problem only if the rules change for what counts as a "good ejection." If there's trickle down, so that it becomes harder for me to have a "good ejection," then I'll complain.

The state association already has a procedure in place to handle poor officials who eject at the drop of a hat. The state suffers from a shortage of officials in virtually every sport but basketball, and schools can't afford to pay more right now. If it does anything to make coaches less rattish, then I'm for it.

Oregon has a very similar "fine/suspension" deal. It includes player ejections too. It works very well at keeping coaches in line. I do two sports, and it is effective in both.

One thing you can count on after an ejection though is a call from the commissioner asking you if there was anything you could have done to prevent the ejection. Depending upon how you answer, the commissioner can choose to recommend that the ejection be uphelp or not.

A little secret (Tim C, you didn't ever read this... . I WON'T restrict coaches to the bench. If the clown is so bad that he needs to go, he goes. If later I felt that it was something I "could" have just restricted him to the bench for, I tell the commissioner that and write an email to him stating that. I find this to be a most eloquent way to get rid of the annoying coach and not have them suffer the fine/suspension for something I probably should have restricted them to the bench for.

With no ejections in 32 NCAA and 29 NFHS games this year, I don't get a lot of calls from the commissioner, except for game assignments!

[lawump]

Fact: Ejections in SC have gone down in baseball since a $100 mandatory fine was instituted.

Fact: I've had more than one coach tell me that they no longer argue like they used to because their wife would not understand the $100 check he has to write out!

Fact: "Good coaches" have not left baseball...the same ones are still coaching.

Fact: The H.S. league office will "override" an ejection (that is waive the fine) if the ejection was particularly meritless. It does not happen often...and when it does, the office has ALWAYS called us (the umpire association board) and given us a heads up, and frankly sought our approval. In the two times it happened since I've been President, I supported the League's actions as our umpires way over-reacted.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by msavakinas

i agree with everything you said... but ejections are part of the game and I think the HS level is becoming to strict (suspensions, fines, etc) on them. I think that the League Office along with the assignor for that conference should look at each ejection individually and then decide whether or not a punishment is necessary. That is the way it is handled at most other levels (NCAA, Most OBR leagues etc etc) and it works out quite swell for the most part.

First of all, Ohio wants one consistent rule for the entire state and all sports, which is a good thing.

Second, the state's view seems to be that coach ejections are NOT part of the game, which should be "all about the kids." Coaches and officials have their roles and should remain in them. You might not like that view, but there it is.

Third, I think that there's some effort to bring baseball into the fold of the other sports. I wouldn't be surprised if baseball and basketball together accounted for 80% or more of the ejections in HS sports, and baseball more than half of those.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by mbyron

First of all, Ohio wants one consistent rule for the entire state and all sports, which is a good thing.

Second, the state's view seems to be that coach ejections are NOT part of the game, which should be "all about the kids." Coaches and officials have their roles and should remain in them. You might not like that view, but there it is.

Third, I think that there's some effort to bring baseball into the fold of the other sports. I wouldn't be surprised if baseball and basketball together accounted for 80% or more of the ejections in HS sports, and baseball more than half of those.

MByron:

I agree with your 99.99%, except that I would be dollars to donuts that soccer ejections are greater that basketball and baseball combined and could be more that all other sports combined. I remember a study that the OhioHSAA did about eight years ago. Soccer ejections in Ohio one Fall totaled twice as many as all other Fall sports combined. Fall sports in Ohio are: soccer (both boys' and girls'), girls' volleyball, football, cross-country (both boys' and girls'), golf (both boys' and girls'), and girls' field hockey.

The year after that study came out I red carded the Head Coach of a boys' jr. varsity team before the start of the game because he dropped a couple of F-bombs on me in front of his players because I told him that the shine guards ALL of his players wearing were not legal; they wouldn't have covered the shine of an 8U girls' team. The best part was that this coach was an OhioHSAA Class 1 soccer official who had gone deep in the OhioHSAA tournament in previous years and was the current president of our local H.S. soccer officials association. I stopped officiating soccer a couple of years later because of my knees and the fact that sports officials whose only sport is soccer are clueless when it comes to sports officiatin.

It just may be that H.S. soccer coaches are starting to get out-of-hand in Ohio again.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by msavakinas

This is not a good thing. It is not the same as other sports. I'm leaving the state this year, headed to Indiana, so it shouldn't affect me at all. But it is not a good thing, a baseball ejection is an entirely different thing than a football or basketball ejection and they should be treated as such.




Your wrong. I like those views. Coaches do some of the things they do for motivation. Not just to get after us. That is part of the game.



Those stats are probably correct, but there's a reason for that. It's a different game than the rest. Those stats are probably true all the way up and down the levels of each sport. It's the way the game is.

How is a baseball ejection different from a basketball or football ejection or any other sport ejection for that matter? A coach ejects himself and that is all there is to it.

MTD, Sr.

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

MByron:

I agree with your 99.99%, except that I would be dollars to donuts that soccer ejections are greater that basketball and baseball combined and could be more that all other sports combined. I remember a study that the OhioHSAA did about eight years ago. Soccer ejections in Ohio one Fall totaled twice as many as all other Fall sports combined. Fall sports in Ohio are: soccer (both boys' and girls'), girls' volleyball, football, cross-country (both boys' and girls'), golf (both boys' and girls'), and girls' field hockey.

The year after that study came out I red carded the Head Coach of a boys' jr. varsity team before the start of the game because he dropped a couple of F-bombs on me in front of his players because I told him that the shine guards ALL of his players wearing were not legal; they wouldn't have covered the shine of an 8U girls' team. The best part was that this coach was an OhioHSAA Class 1 soccer official who had gone deep in the OhioHSAA tournament in previous years and was the current president of our local H.S. soccer officials association. I stopped officiating soccer a couple of years later because of my knees and the fact that sports officials whose only sport is soccer are clueless when it comes to sports officiatin.

It just may be that H.S. soccer coaches are starting to get out-of-hand in Ohio again.

MTD, Sr.

Soccer is my other sport too.

We have seen a BIG reduction of red cards with the stiff fines/suspensions.

I agree (mostly) about soccer refs who only do soccer not having much of a clue, at least about some things. I have seen some of the worst sportsmanship displays on HS soccer fields, and officials who when I talked to them about it didn't have ANY problem with the display. But these same guys are concerned with the "red card issues" from violent play. LOL

[Rich]

Originally Posted by msavakinas

baseball is the only sport where it is legal to enter the field of play and argue a call. Are you going to end that as well? No more entering the field to "discuss" a call with the first base umpire?

If I could, I would. Why should a coach be able to come out on a routine judgment call and ask me "what did you see?" I'd like to respond with:

"Why the hell are you out here? The runner beat the throw, now get your *** back in the dugout and quit wasting our time." Actually, I am moving more in this direction. As it is, I'm just saying, "the runner beat the throw.....let's go" and walking away.

I would extend the "no leaving a position to argue" provision to include all judgment calls, including out/safe and fair/foul as well as all judgment based balk, interference, and obstruction calls.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by msavakinas

baseball is the only sport where it is legal to enter the field of play and argue a call. Are you going to end that as well? No more entering the field to "discuss" a call with the first base umpire?

No, I am not going to end that BUT, the Head Coach must first request a timeout, and the Umpire must grant the timeout. If the timeout is not granted there is not going to be any discussion.

MTD, Sr.