appeal - time play??

[newump]

R1, R3. 2 out. BR hits a single. R3 scores. R2 goes to third but misses 2nd. defense properly appeals and R2 is declared out for the 3rd out. does the run count?? is the out of R2 considered a force play since he never legally reached.


i know if we have R3 only with 2 outs and BR hits a double but misses first and then a proper appeal at first is completed. the run does not count. does this same theory apply in my above situation.

thanks.

[ggk]

i'd say that the run does not count due to the fact that this is still a force play on R2 at 2nd base.

sorry, but i don't have a rule citation

[aceholleran]

Originally Posted by newump

R1, R3. 2 out. BR hits a single. R3 scores. R2 goes to third but misses 2nd. defense properly appeals and R2 is declared out for the 3rd out. does the run count?? is the out of R2 considered a force play since he never legally reached.


i know if we have R3 only with 2 outs and BR hits a double but misses first and then a proper appeal at first is completed. the run does not count. does this same theory apply in my above situation.

thanks.

R3's run does not count. Third out of inning was made by R1, who was forced at second.

One time, way back when I was a teeny rattus, I won a protest on a similar call.

Ace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by newump

R1, R3. 2 out. BR hits a single. R3 scores. R2 goes to third but misses 2nd. defense properly appeals and R2 is declared out for the 3rd out. does the run count?? is the out of R2 considered a force play since he never legally reached.


i know if we have R3 only with 2 outs and BR hits a double but misses first and then a proper appeal at first is completed. the run does not count. does this same theory apply in my above situation.

thanks.

Yes, it's a force out and the run does not count.

[greymule]

Here's a somewhat similar play that NCAA calls differently from OBR and Fed:

R3, R1, 1 out. Batter hits a hard one-hopper to F3, who steps on 1B for the second out. R3 scores. F3 throws to 2B for the tag play on R1, but the ball goes into the outfield. R1 then misses 2B and advances to 3B. The defense successfully appeals the miss of 2B for the third out.

In OBR and Fed, the third out is not considered a force play, because the out on the BR at 1B removed the force play on R1. Therefore, R3's run counts. However, in NCAA, R3's run is nullified, because regardless of the out at 1B, R1 was forced at 2B when the play began.

Note that in NCAA, if R1 is simply tagged out trying to advance to 2B, the run counts. But if R1 misses 2B and is subsequently out on appeal, the run does not count.

[dash_riprock]

What is the "when the play began" reference? At the time of the missed base, R1 had regained his right to occupy 1st base and was not forced by the B/R.

[greymule]

What is the "when the play began" reference?

2006 BRD, play 243, page 145. Force at "time of pitch" (i.e., when the play began) as opposed to "time of miss."

[dash_riprock]

Don't have that. Do you have the NCAA Rule reference? Thanks.

[greymule]

Do you have the NCAA Rule reference?

The BRD cites:

NCAA: If a runner is put out during live action, his out does not remove the force on any preceding runner who might later be called out for a baserunning infraction. (8-5j Ex)

[Dave Reed]

Here's the NCAA rule 8-5j
SECTION 5. A runner is out when:
.......
j. The individual fails to reach the next base before a fielder tags the runner or the base after the runner has been forced to advance because the batter became a runner;
Exception—No runner can be forced out if a runner who follows in the batting order is put out first. However, if a runner is put out during live action, it does not remove the force on any runners who might subsequently be declared out for a running infraction.
......

The BRD doesn't include the first sentence of the rule, and that omission allows a much stronger reading of the second sentence than I believe was intended by the NCAA.

Perhaps I just don't understand CC's point, but to me it looks like a 3 codes are effectively the same: if a runner misses a base while he is still forced, it remains a force out even though the appeal comes later.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by greymule

Note that in NCAA, if R1 is simply tagged out trying to advance to 2B, the run counts. But if R1 misses 2B and is subsequently out on appeal, the run does not count.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your sentence here, but are you saying that with runners on first and third and two outs, if R3 hits the plate before R1 is tagged for out #3 before reaching second that R3's run counts? If that's what you're saying, it's incorrect. R1's out is a force out regardless of how it's made.

[greymule]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your sentence here, but are you saying that with runners on first and third and two outs, if R3 hits the plate before R1 is tagged for out #3 before reaching second that R3's run counts? If that's what you're saying, it's incorrect. R1's out is a force out regardless of how it's made.

There is indeed a misunderstanding. With runners on 1B and 3B and 2 outs (as you describe above), the third out on R1 at 2B is of course a force out, and when R3 touches the plate is irrelevant. The run does not score.

Note that the play I described earlier began with runners at 1B and 3B and one out; the second out came on F3's tag of 1B. After the second out removes the force on R1, an out on R1 is of course a time play, unless R1 misses 2B, in which case the appeal at 2B is a force play even though R1 was not forced at the time he missed 2B. I admit it's a strange difference from OBR and Fed.

[jdmara]

In Fed, would the run count?

[greymule]

In Fed, would the run count?

In Fed and OBR, whether or not a sustained appeal for a missed base is a force out is determined by whether the runner was forced at the time he missed the bag. In the play described in my last post, when R1 missed 2B, the BR had already been put out, so R1 was not forced at the time of the miss. Therefore, the out is not a force out but a time play, and the run would count.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by greymule

In Fed, would the run count?

In Fed and OBR, whether or not a sustained appeal for a missed base is a force out is determined by whether the runner was forced at the time he missed the bag. In the play described in my last post, when R1 missed 2B, the BR had already been put out, so R1 was not forced at the time of the miss. Therefore, the out is not a force out but a time play, and the run would count.

Thank you for clearing that up greymule!

-Josh