3rd Strike In The Dirt

[FTVMartin]

I would give one "bater's out" After that, I say nothing. If the batter takes off for first and draws a throw that is just a mental error on F2.

As far as the interference, You can't call what you don't see. You can however, sometimes, call what you hear.

[canadaump6]

If you say nothing and the catcher overthrows to first thinking the batter wasn't automatically out, the catcher/defensive coach will often blame you for not making a call. What else is new? The umpire gets blamed for everything.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by NewUmpinCT

Guys thanks for clearing that up in my mind. I didn't look at it that way and I didn't actually see it in the NFHS rule book (unless I missed it... Is it referenced there?)

Hint: Look at all the conditions where a batter becomes a batter-runner.

Then, look at all the rules governing runners (and how they are put out).

Now, put the two together...

[DG]

On a swinging third strike in the dirt with runner on 1B and less than 2 outs I will always call the batter out forcefully so nothing foolish goes on like the catcher throwing the ball down the RF line. "He's out, he's out" will generally stop all foolishness. No catcher is throwing to 1b to get a runner who is already out on my watch. This situation happened last night, it happened tonight, it will probably happen tomorrow night. The batter-runner makes it about 10 feet before they stop because they know they are OUT.

It's my job to announce outs and everybody in the park will know it. I disagree with leaving players to think about it.

[TussAgee11]

Because with a runner on first there is no way this batter can become a batter/runner unless he hits the ball (outside of CI). Everybody in the park should know that. If F2 doesn't know it, its his problem, not mine to correct.

Like I said in my previous post, if the situation can have batter become B/R, I will let the catcher know what I've called. If he's out when he's swung... catcher should know that. We, as umpires, have a code not to say anything when a batter strikes out swinging. Everybody knows he's out, why show him up?

Unless there is a question about whether he is actually out or not, such as with 1st base unoccupied or 2 outs and you have a ball in the dirt... just signal your strike and let fools be fools.

[PeteBooth]

Yes it's referenced in the FED rule book

FED rule 2.29.3 Definition of a Force

Pete Booth

[aceholleran]

If I see F2 about to make a play to 1B on a third strike where B1 does not become a runner. I verbalize once: "Batter's out." Once again, I do this only when B1 runs to first and F2 pops up likes he's gonna hurl the horsehide.

It's not to make myself feel better; it's to avert a fugly sitch where all heck breaks loose.

I don't feel this is aiding the defense.

Harrumph.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

I don't say a word on a routine swining caught third strike. Just hammer it in like I do every other routine swinging strike.

However, if the ball is close the dirt, the catcher NEEDS to know what you have called. Remember, he can't see you.

What I do, and this is in accordance with other MLB umps, is hammer it in if it is caught, and give a low verbal to the catcher saying "catch".

If the ball hits the dirt, give a safe sign (before any strike is indicated). Also verbalize no catch so the batter and catcher can know what you have called.

On a check swing 3rd strike in the dirt, things can get tricky. A point at the batter exclaiming "Yes, he did!" followed by your safe mechanic and verbalizing softly (No-Catch) is accepted now.

Remember, batter and catcher can not see your mechanics. Something must be verbalized so they know what you have called. It is not "coaching", it is umpiring. Informing players of what you have called.

What would I tell you if on a close play at second I just didn't give any mechanic or verbal? Well, that is what you are doing to the catcher and batter if you don't give a verbal on a D3K.

Edited to add:

In the OP sitch, the umpire does not need to verbalize anything unless we had a check swing. A simple strike mechanic is all that is necessary. Because there is no way that this batter is not OUT, we don't need to say anything. F2, batter, and coaches should all know he is out. F2 is at fault for taking the batter's bait, intended or not.

I agree there are times when F2 and the batter need to know what the call is (the OP is not one of them) and, since they can't see me, a verbal mechanic is called for. If the B/R can advance on a DTS, I will call the strike first, then "no catch" with safe sign (priorities are, in order, strike/ball, fair/foul (N/A here), catch/no catch). With any runners on (and B/R can advance on a DTS), if there is a checked swing that I have balled, I will immediately go to my partner "did he go?" without being asked.

Rich Ives: Can you enlighten me as to the Eddings play? Maybe I need to make a change. Thanks.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

Rich Ives: Can you enlighten me as to the Eddings play? Maybe I need to make a change. Thanks.

I'm not Rich, but here's the play. World Series (game 6?) A J Pierzinski at bat (I'm sure I misspelled that) with 2 strikes and 2 outs. Pitch near the dirt, batter swings. F2 thinks he caught it and rolls the ball to the mound. BR takes off thinking F2 didn't catch it. Doug Eddings, PU, says nothing and watches all of this transpire.

With BR standing on 1B, the umpires huddle, determine no catch, and leave BR on 1B. Next batter doubles, runner scores, White Sox win, go on to win the Series. One umpire's call turned the tide (or so many Cardinals fans will tell you).

One more thing: Eddings signaled the swing (hand straight out) AND the out (hammer). That didn't seem to matter.

[dash_riprock]

Thanks MB - I remember it now. That is, for sure, a "need to know if it's a catch" situation. Can't be silent there.

But on a DTS when the B/R cannot advance, I'm calling the strike and nothing else. If you loudly call "batter's out! batter's out!" when the B/R cannot advance, as some have suggested, sooner or later you will do it with 2 outs and the bases loaded. And everyone stops. Now what?

If you never call it, you will never F it up.

[bob jenkins]

Somewhere in the FED case book, there's a case where the PU is instructed to "forcefully" call the batter out when he attempts to run in a situation when he can't. (okay -- I could probably word that in a better way.)

It's not everytime the batter is out.

I use that at all levels -- telling the runners they don't need to leave the base and telling the defense they don't need to make a play.

ymmv.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

What I do, and this is in accordance with other MLB umps, is hammer it in if it is caught, and give a low verbal to the catcher saying "catch".

If the ball hits the dirt, give a safe sign (before any strike is indicated). Also verbalize no catch so the batter and catcher can know what you have called.

I'll add a comment on the "ball in the dirt" call.

As described by a MLB umpire addressing our local association, here is a little twist on the uncaught third strike play. First point: always signal the strike. If you are normally a hammerin' kind of guy (hammer signal on strikes), on this play use a point to first signal the strike, then do your verbal "no catch" and give the safe signal.

In fact, more than just a typical point, he demonstrated an exagerated and prolonged point, holding the right arm straight out to the side a bit longer than you pointer's would normally point a strike.

This clearly differentiates between a "strike" signal and a hammer "out" signal. And the reason he gave us for this method was the Doug Eddings play.

As I recall that play, Eddings did not use a point to signal the strike- he made a hammer signal. In post gamme interviews and explanations, Eddings was pressed about having signalled the batter out (hammer). He explained that was his normal strike signal and he was merely signalling the strike.

Hence the "point this one" mechanic. The umpire that realyed this to our group did so in the spring following Eddings call in the ALCS, and noted that this mechanic was devised to specifically address such a situation.

[Richard_Siegel]

When there is a "dropped 3rd strike," EVERYBODY on the field should know exactly what the situation is. Everybody has had the opportunity to get the count and know the number of outs. Everybody should have noticed if 1B was occupied.

Therefore you are under no obligation to say "the batter is out" in the situation if the defense gets confused. The players have to know the rules.

I have seen batters run to 1B when they were not entitled to and it caused other runners to be confused and get put out, even double plays! I have also seen situations where batters run to 1B when they were not entitled to and it caused the fielders to become confused and when they played on the batter who had struck out it allowed other runners to advance and even score. The confusion can go both ways.

You are also under no obligation to call, “the batter’s out!” although many umpires do. However, unless you are very sure of yourself and if you think you will not screw it up and accidentally say the batter is out when he is not, I suggest you never call it. The players have to know the rules.
When the pitcher throws the pitch that becomes the 3rd strike that is not caught, all of the defensive players had ample opportunity before that pitch to see that first base was occupied and they all had had ample opportunity before the pitch find out how many outs there were. This information is easy to get. If the catcher has ample opportunity to see that first base is occupied and to find out that there is one out BEFORE the pitcher throws the pitch which became the 3rd strike, why would he throw the ball to 1B when the runner runs? It is because he is not thinking. He is expecting you (the umpire) to do his job for him.

The response is simple when a coach complains to you should have called the batter out so the batter who ran to 1B could not confuse or deceive his catcher into throwing the ball to 1B unnecessarily: "Coach, I'm sure you've taught your players the rules! Before your pitcher threw the pitch, I'm sure your catcher noticed that first base was occupied and I'm sure he knew there were less than two outs. If he knew this why would he throw the ball to 1B when he knew the runner is already out? That information was available to him, and everybody, before the pitch was thrown. Why did YOU tell him NOT to throw it? I can't penalize the batter for running, even if he did it on purpose. Deception is part of the game."

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by BretMan

As I recall that play, Eddings did not use a point to signal the strike- he made a hammer signal. In post gamme interviews and explanations, Eddings was pressed about having signalled the batter out (hammer). He explained that was his normal strike signal and he was merely signalling the strike.

I remember the play quite clearly. Eddings made TWO signals.
1. He pointed straight out to the side -- the same extended point that your MLB guy recommends -- which signaled the swing. It was a good solid swing, no doubt that he went around.
2. He hammered. What did that mean? Now he says it meant a strike; but then what did the point mean? His hammer meant an out, which he later "took back."

Ugly ugly ugly umpiring, at the highest level and at a crucial moment.

[dash_riprock]

He must have felt like $hit for a long time after that play. And he REALLY must have felt like $hit for the rest of that game. I feel for ya Doug.