3rd Strike In The Dirt

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

He must have felt like $hit for a long time after that play. And he REALLY must have felt like $hit for the rest of that game. I feel for ya Doug.

Guess you haven't seen the web sites devoted to Doug.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I remember the play quite clearly. Eddings made TWO signals.
1. He pointed straight out to the side -- the same extended point that your MLB guy recommends -- which signaled the swing. It was a good solid swing, no doubt that he went around.
2. He hammered. What did that mean? Now he says it meant a strike; but then what did the point mean? His hammer meant an out, which he later "took back."

Ugly ugly ugly umpiring, at the highest level and at a crucial moment.

Yes, your memory is better than the account I gave.

Here's a clip. Maybe the "point" was half a safe signal...

http://www.firedoug.com/blowncall.htm

[SAump]

The FED ruling requires the umpire to state that the batter's out after a DTS, w/1st base occupied and less than 2 outs. For some reason, it applies and most umpires in my area follow these FED instructions. I always thought it was coaching one team or the other, as Richard Siegel discussed in his post. I know the play was an effective coaching strategy to use against "weaker" opponents. Since implementing the verbal "batter's out" call, I have seen the opportunities diminish for a cheap run to score or for a cheap out to occur on the basepath. I can't figure out if this is a good thing or not, but I suppose the "quality" of the game has improved. This is a situation when asking why I have to do it isn't as important as knowing that I have to do it because of a previous FED ruling.

[MichaelVA2000]

Originally Posted by SAump

The FED ruling requires the umpire to state that the batter's out after a DTS, w/1st base occupied and less than 2 outs.

I'm not where my 2008 FED Rules Book is available, where does the book say that?

[SanDiegoSteve]

To not announce that the batter is out on an uncaught 3rd strike with 1B occupied and less than 2 outs is asking for trouble.

To even suggest that announcing the batter to be out is "coaching" is absurd, bordering on ludicrous.

It is nothing more than good preventative officiating to avoid all the calamities that Richard Siegel brought up. It's the prudent thing to do.

The argument that an umpire might accidentally mistake the situation when 2 are out and erroneously call out the batter is also a bunch of hooey. The umpires are the ones on the field who need to know the situation, and should not have any trouble telling which mechanic applies.

Expecting the coaches and players to know rules and situations is a pipe dream at best. These are the same people, remember, who think that the hands are part of the bat and that ties go to runners. Expecting them to think quickly enough when a 3rd strike hits the dirt to do the right thing is asking a lot of these mental giants.

So, whenever a 3rd strike uncaught/1B occupied/0 or 1 out situation occurred, I would say "batter's out." It merely points out a fact, no less a fact than an out call at any other base, and prevents a Ringling Brothers moment from happening.

[CO ump]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

To not announce that the batter is out on an uncaught 3rd strike with 1B occupied and less than 2 outs is asking for trouble.

To even suggest that announcing the batter to be out is "coaching" is absurd, bordering on ludicrous.

Assuming shaving age kids.
I disagree.
I don't announce, verbalize, "batter out" on a swinging caught third strike. Why? Because everyone saw the swing and everyone knows he's out.
And they know he's out because they know the rule. Also because it is a very long standing and accepted mechanic.
Nor do I verbalize "take your base" after ball 4. Why? I assume they know the rule and are paying attention.

There's a rule that covers DTS less than 2 outs and I assume they know it and are paying attention to the situation. If they don't and/or aren't they may have to suffer the consequence.

Bases loaded 2 outs DTS.
When F2 retrieves the ball should I be telling him to simply touch HP because he may not know the rule? It would certainly prevent the possibility of him airmailing it to RF. And/or should I be yelling at the runners "You can run, you're being forced"?
They probably know the rule and just aren't paying attention. No harm in reminding them is there?

If the batter swings and is out I use the same non verbal mechanic every time, that way I know I'm giving no advantage to either team by my actions or words.

If I change my mechanic on a DTS and verbalize "out" I am only doing it to remind them of the rule. Where do I draw the line on whom I remind, what rules I remind them of and when I remind them?

[chuckfan1]

Just another two cents..

When a batter-runner is out by 15 feet at first,...everyone in the park knows he's out. But umpires from MLB on down still give a casual out mechanic. Why? To complete the cycle. Pitchers pitches..batter hits...F4 fields...and F3 recieves. And 1BU gives the signal. Next....

When Ive sat down near the dugout, I could even hear the 1BU say.."Thats an out".... doesnt say it demonstrably, just in combo with the mechanic.

Whats wrong with signaling the out. casual but firm (dont do the macarena)........and a verbal "Batters out"...one time.
Everyone knows the BR is out on that groundball. And everyone should know the batter is out in this case when 1st is occupied with less than two out. But as we see, they dont always.
So, if we give a casual out at first on the grounder...why not give one here...with a verbal.."batters out". Everyone knows the Batter is out, or they should. We are just completing the cycle....next.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by MichaelVA2000

I'm not where my 2008 FED Rules Book is available, where does the book say that?

I am only referring to the "Batter's Out!" call after a DTS, w/ 1B occupied and less than two out.

I sat on the fence about whether it was appropriate or not. I also believed it was coaching. I wasn't actually coaching, I was making the right call. The call became easier to make over time. I found that I was more alert and in touch w/ a common game situation. It made me a better umpire.

Its tough trying to rememeber where/when/who provided me with the info about a correct DTS mechanic on this website when so many threads have been devoted to the subject. So I will link one of many similar discussions: Dropped 3rd Stike Fiasco

Edited to delete "until I finally figured out that I was wrong" from 2nd sentence.

[thumpferee]

Originally Posted by MichaelVA2000

I'm not where my 2008 FED Rules Book is available, where does the book say that?

7-4.1.b Batter is out, 8-4.1.e Runner is out.

Is it not our job to call out when we have an out?

[dash_riprock]

Not always.

[ODJ]

New ump here (2nd year) and I (base ump) had a situation arise in a JV game with a more veteran partner (6 yrs plate ump).

Experience does not equal ability.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by ODJ

Experience does not equal ability.

For those that choose not to progress...............


Tim.

[ODJ]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

For those that choose not to progress...............


Tim.

True.

[Cub42]

Runners at first and third and nobody out. Batter is out, he can not advance as first base is occupied. You make no call as you have nothing on the batter, because he is already out. I would suggest that the PU use the mechanic verbally announcing " Batter is out" preventing the chaos that is about to ensue

[bob jenkins]

FED 2005 Case book, case 8.4.1K (play as in the OP). RULING: As soon as B2 starts to run to first, the umpire shall forcefully announce that B2 is out. The ball remains alive. It is the responsibility of the defense to know the conditions that warrant the necessity of a play being made.

imo: There's a difference between announcing the status of the ball / runner / etc. (not coaching) and telling either team waht to do with that information (throw the ball (or not), run (or not), etc. (this is coaching).