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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Apr 13, 2008, 03:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartee14
But, I do agree with Steve M, if a partner did let a player back into the game with those symptoms, they were wrong. The good thing is, the NFHS and most state associations are starting to allow Athletic Trainers to do more and more.
Ok, but until it's in black and white that an Athletic Trainer can approve the return of a player who has been unconscious you can't allow their return. By doing so, you are asking for a court date.

Just my opinion (and others), but I believe you are wrong by allowing the player to return based on an AT's opinion. As I said, do as you wish, but you are asking to open a big can of worms.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sun Apr 13, 2008, 03:45pm
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Let me ask this question. What if you deem the player was not unconscious and the Athletic Trainer said he was unconscious. Would you let the player return?
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sun Apr 13, 2008, 05:41pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartee14
Let me ask this question. What if you deem the player was not unconscious and the Athletic Trainer said he was unconscious. Would you let the player return?
If anybody told me the player was unconscious I'm keeping him out until I get a doctor's note stating that he's okay to play. This is not a two-way street. Let's be clear, we're concerned about a concussion. If a player exhibits any of the following symptoms I'm not allowing him back into the game until he has his note.
  • Appears dazed or stunned
  • Is confused about assignment
  • Forgets plays
  • Is unsure of game, score, or opponent
  • Moves clumsily
  • Answers questions slowly
  • Loses consciousness
  • Shows behavior or personality changes
  • Can't recall events prior to hit
  • Can't recall events after hit
Or the athlete himself might report the following symptoms if he has a concussion, including a:
  • Headache
  • Nausea
  • Balance problems or dizziness
  • Double or fuzzy vision
  • Sensitivity to light or noise
  • Feeling sluggish
  • Feeling foggy or groggy
  • Concentration or memory problems
  • Confusion
Other important facts about concussions include that they:
  • are caused by a bump, blow, or jolt to the head
  • can occur even if the athlete doesn't lose consciousness
  • can happen in any sport
  • may not cause symptoms until days or weeks after the injury
  • can cause brain swelling, permanent brain damage, or even death, if an athlete has a second concussion before fulling recovering from a first one
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 21, 2008, 04:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waltjp
  • Appears dazed or stunned
  • Is confused about assignment
  • Forgets plays
  • Is unsure of game, score, or opponent
  • Moves clumsily
  • Answers questions slowly
  • Loses consciousness
  • Shows behavior or personality changes
  • Can't recall events prior to hit
  • Can't recall events after hit
Or the athlete himself might report the following symptoms if he has a concussion, including a:
  • Headache
  • Nausea
  • Balance problems or dizziness
  • Double or fuzzy vision
  • Sensitivity to light or noise
  • Feeling sluggish
  • Feeling foggy or groggy
  • Concentration or memory problems
  • Confusion
Other important facts about concussions include that they:
  • are caused by a bump, blow, or jolt to the head
  • can occur even if the athlete doesn't lose consciousness
  • can happen in any sport
  • may not cause symptoms until days or weeks after the injury
  • can cause brain swelling, permanent brain damage, or even death, if an athlete has a second concussion before fulling recovering from a first one

Who are you to say that the player can't play if they exhibit signs of a concussion. We can only limit return to play in the event of an apparent LOC not a concussion.

This discussion is very trying for me because I am both and umpire and an Athletic Trainer. The rule clearly states that in the event of apparent LOC then the player must have written permission/clearance from a MD. Let me tell you something, any ATC worth anything, and that has any clue, will not allow a player to RTP if there is any thought that there was LOC. Any time I have apparent LOC with my athletes, their in the ER asap.

I think that umpires need to be aware of LOC. Reading this I'm not sure that you guys know the difference between a concussion and LOC. Dazed/Confused/Dizzy/Amnesia, all that from the list above does not equal a loss of consciousness.

I think that, and the way that I would handle this situation if there is no ATC present, is after everything calms down, as the coach and I are discussing who the replacement is, I would tell the coach that in my opinion that player had a LOC and state why that is (unresponsive, blacked out, etc). If he asks me why I feel that way, then i explain my medical experience. I truely believe that if this happens, 1. the coach doesn't try to put the kid in, and 2. he won't have a problem with me saying hey I feel this way and this is what i observed. I don't think that he needs to be told that the player cannot return unless a doc's note is present, becasue he's going to seek one out maybe. Also, it needs to be noted on the line-up cards that there was LOC and why. And if the coaches have a problem, all you have to tell them is Tough crap, let move on
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Old Mon Apr 21, 2008, 08:02pm
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Eagle_12, the chart waltjp copied was provided by the "Department of Health and Human Services Centers for Disease Control and Prevention," or as you might say, DOHAHSCFDCAP, so if you have a problem with it, maybe you should take it out on them. But they probably don't know what they are talking about because they are not Athletic Trainers.

Their first recommendation in the Point of Emphasis was to "Remove athlete from play" if you SUSPECT, that a player has a concussion.

Being, just a "dumb ole umpire" and not an expert Athletic Trainer and also following the rules, I will not let a player return without a physicians written authorization if they exhibit the Signs and Symptons suggest by the Department of Health.

Finally, I really don't believe that you need to explain to a coach that because his player is "unresponsive or blacked out" that they had a loss of consciousness, and that you determined that because of your medical experience. DAH.

But being just a dumb ole umpire, who am I to say.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 21, 2008, 09:56pm
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Please show me where it says that we can limit due to a concussion, let alone a "suspected" concussion.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 21, 2008, 10:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_12
Please show me where it says that we can limit due to a concussion, let alone a "suspected" concussion.

different sport (Softball) FED rules...... Batter takes a pitch of the helmet..happens a lot..no big deal, right? well instead of going to first, she just stands there....shakes her head....and shakes it again.... I talk to her, and she doesnt respond... I tell her to look at me, and she finally looks in my direction and her eyes are unfocused.....I figured it was a concussion then, and NO WAY IN HELL was she going to continue that game. Report me, whatever. The trainer then comes up and tells me its her 3rd ONE SINCE THE start of the school year! 2 in BASKETBALL, and now this one. I told the trainer and head coach that tehre was no way she was continuing, and in my unexpert opinon, she shouldnt be playing any sports for a LONG time! (ever?)
I wrote a letter to the state association..never heard anything back..my point is...Im going to err on the side of caution...fed game, concussion= trip to the doctor, and doctors note. Period.
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Old Sun Apr 13, 2008, 05:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartee14
Let me ask this question. What if you deem the player was not unconscious and the Athletic Trainer said he was unconscious. Would you let the player return?
I would have to evaluate the situation on an individual basis. No one-size-fits-all answer. Depending on the situation, and the trainer, I might allow his assessment to help form my decision.

There's no rule against that.

But there is a rule about allowing an player rendered unconcious to return the game without written authorization from a physician. So, if the AT convinces me that the player was unconcious, the player will need that note to get back in the game.

And if I am to err, I will err toward the side of caution. If the trainer is adamant that the player was knocked out, the kid is probably gone until complying with the rules for coming back.

Last edited by BretMan; Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:47pm.
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sun Apr 13, 2008, 06:22pm
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The fact of the matter is I hope this hardly ever happens to anyone because it is one of those situations where you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Sun Apr 13, 2008, 07:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartee14
The fact of the matter is I hope this hardly ever happens to anyone because it is one of those situations where you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.
I don't think you grasp what we are saying here.

This is not about Athletic Trainers.
This is not about a player being uncounscious or not.
This is not being dammed.

This is about protecting yourself from being accused and convicted of negligence and the penalty (which may be financial or other).

I would not even take the advice of my own son on this subject and he is a certified Athletic Trainer. Unfortunately, until he graduates from Med. School the judge probably won't want his advise either.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Sun Apr 13, 2008, 07:20pm
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Trust me, I agree with all of you and I do grasp what you are all saying. Being on forum and not in person, things could have been explained much better. I thank you all for your input. I consider this topic closed.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Sun Apr 13, 2008, 07:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartee14
Let me ask this question. What if you deem the player was not unconscious and the Athletic Trainer said he was unconscious. Would you let the player return?
If the AT said he was not fit for play, I'd take his word for it. In this case, he's an expert.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Sun Apr 13, 2008, 11:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dash_riprock
If the AT said he was not fit for play, I'd take his word for it. In this case, he's an expert.
This I would agree with. But it's not a 2 way street -- I would not allow the player back in without the written authorization from the doctor.

Horse beaten.
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