Is there a Dr. in da house

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Hartee14

I agree with you that an Athletic Trainer is not an MD or DO. But, they do have to work under the direction of an MD or DO. So, trust me, they know what they are doing. Athletic Trainer's have to go through 4 years of college and then pass a National Board test. My point being, as an umpire, it is not my job to tell whether the player was unconscious, it is a medical professional. In this case, the medical professional is the Athletic Trainer. This is another case of an official thinking they are more important then they really are.

You fail to understand. It is a requirement that written authorization from a doctor (from what I've heard some states require this on letterhead) is required to allow a player to return when the player appeared to lose consciousness TO THE OFFICIAL. The medical trainer is irrelevant in this process and will continue to be until the NFHS recognizes that person in the rule, same as they recognize an MD or DO. They won't, because the standard of training is much higher for an MD and DO and there are more stringent licensing requirements.

Now, if the trainer is an MD or DO, then that person can write me up authorization taking responsibility and I'll allow the player to return.

This is another case of an official doing what is expected of him and, like it or not, I am the ultimate authority of whether someone returns to the game. The trainer can go pound sand if he doesn't like it.

Welcome to the board, BTW.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by Hartee14

I agree with you that an Athletic Trainer is not an MD or DO. But, they do have to work under the direction of an MD or DO. So, trust me, they know what they are doing. Athletic Trainer's have to go through 4 years of college and then pass a National Board test. My point being, as an umpire, it is not my job to tell whether the player was unconscious, it is a medical professional. In this case, the medical professional is the Athletic Trainer. This is another case of an official thinking they are more important then they really are.

No its actually another case of someone spouting off, that has never been involved in a lawsuite.

I hope your insurance coverage is as large as your sympathy for the Trainer.
A good lawyer will make swisscheese out of your argument.

Mr. Umpire, "Are we to understand, that "YOU" as the head official for this athletic contest in question, knowingly allowed a previously seriously injured player return to the game, and was permanently crippled when he was again hit by another pitch, without a docters written approval?

Yes or NO?

I certainly hope you carry a lot of insurance!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Hartee14

Unless you see the athlete laying there unconscious and they have to do CPR or mouth to mouth breathing, there is no reason not to let them return.

I'm a basketball and football ref, not a baseball umpire, but I check things out over here from time to time. That said, the rule is written the same in basketball and baseball at the Fed level.

Being unconscious, per the rules, is the determination of the game official - not anyone else. If there is any hint of LOC, I'm calling the player unconscious. Your individual judgment may differ, but PLEASE do not think that someone needs airway support or CPR in order to be unconscious. In most cases where someone loses consciousness, they are still breathing on their own!

[jdmara]

No way would I ever allow an athlete participate after an injury to the head. I have had head injuries and it's not worth the risk

[Rich]

Originally Posted by jdmara

No way would I ever allow an athlete participate after an injury to the head. I have had head injuries and it's not worth the risk

You mean after an injury that rendered the athlete (apparently) unconscious, right?

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by Hartee14

... as an umpire, it is not my job to tell whether the player was unconscious...

Actually, according to the NFHS baseball rules, it is your job. If there is even the smallest of hints that the player has suffered LOC, he's done for the day until I get the proper written autorization.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

This comment is ignorant. . . .

Gratuitous name-calling leads to flame wars. It detracts from, rather than adds to, the value of the statement that follows. That a moderator then appears to agree with it is discouraging.

[Hartee14]

I do not fail to understand anything. I know the rule. The fact remains I am going to listen to the Athletic Trainer in this situation. I feel the way I feel. In my opinion, no medical professional, including an Athletic Trainer, is going to let an athlete back into a game that should not be playing. You guys do not give the Athletic Trainers enough respect. Most people think they are glorified EMTs. They are not. They are much more then that.

I am in agreement that if the athlete looses unconscious that an MD or DO will have to let the athlete back in the game. What we are arguing about is who makes the decision. I am not putting that burden on me.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Gratuitous name-calling leads to flame wars. It detracts from, rather than adds to, the value of the statement that follows. That a moderator then appears to agree with it is discouraging.

Calling a comment ignorant is not name calling. I am referring to the comment, which I do find ignorant.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Gratuitous name-calling leads to flame wars. It detracts from, rather than adds to, the value of the statement that follows. That a moderator then appears to agree with it is discouraging.

There's a difference between "this comment ..." and "you ..."

And, the comment did give me pause. Based on the rest of his body of work here, I gave the benefit of the doubt to Rich.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

You mean after an injury that rendered the athlete (apparently) unconscious, right?

Of course! That is what we are chatting about. I respect Certified Trainers but the rules are pretty straight forward on who can make the authorization.

-Josh

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by Hartee14

I agree with you that an Athletic Trainer is not an MD or DO. But, they do have to work under the direction of an MD or DO. So, trust me, they know what they are doing. Athletic Trainer's have to go through 4 years of college and then pass a National Board test. My point being, as an umpire, it is not my job to tell whether the player was unconscious, it is a medical professional. In this case, the medical professional is the Athletic Trainer. This is another case of an official thinking they are more important then they really are.

No, it's just a case of following the rules. If the player was rendered (apparently) unconscious, the rules say the Athletic Trainer's opinion isn't good enough. The umpire isn't making that decision, someone else did. The umpire decides if the player was unconscious. The doctor decides if he returns.

[Hartee14]

Let's agree to disagree on this topic.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

No, it's just a case of following the rules. If the player was rendered (apparently) unconscious, the rules say the Athletic Trainer's opinion isn't good enough. The umpire isn't making that decision, someone else did. The umpire decides if the player was unconscious. The doctor decides if he returns.

Agreed. AND IF a partner let a player, who had been knocked out, back into the game - without a note from an MD or DO - I do believe that this partner would be finishing the game alone. Trainers are great at what they are qualified to do, but they do not meet the requirements stated in the rules.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Hartee14

Let's agree to disagree on this topic.

I will agree (with anyone else) that you are wrong.