Is there a Dr. in da house

[Hartee14]

Let's agree to disagree on this topic.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Hartee14

Let's agree to disagree on this topic.

I will agree (with anyone else) that you are wrong.

[Hartee14]

That is the type of comment that does not have to be made. Grow up.

[Hartee14]

But, I do agree with Steve M, if a partner did let a player back into the game with those symptoms, they were wrong. The good thing is, the NFHS and most state associations are starting to allow Athletic Trainers to do more and more.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by Hartee14

But, I do agree with Steve M, if a partner did let a player back into the game with those symptoms, they were wrong. The good thing is, the NFHS and most state associations are starting to allow Athletic Trainers to do more and more.

Man, I think you missed what I was saying - or at least meant to be clear on.
If you & are are doing a game, a player is knocked out, and you let him back into the game with only the OK of an athletic trainer - you will finish that game alone.
And I live in an area where it is very likely there are several docs in the stands - in this county, we have 1 doc for every 300 people. (That also means there are a lot of lawyers around too)

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Steve M

Man, I think you missed what I was saying - or at least meant to be clear on.
If you & are are doing a game, a player is knocked out, and you let him back into the game with only the OK of an athletic trainer - you will finish that game alone.
And I live in an area where it is very likely there are several docs in the stands - in this county, we have 1 doc for every 300 people. (That also means there are a lot of lawyers around too)

And I'm not asking a trainer his opinion on "apparently unconscious." By rule, that belongs to me.

[tjones1]

Originally Posted by Hartee14

But, I do agree with Steve M, if a partner did let a player back into the game with those symptoms, they were wrong. The good thing is, the NFHS and most state associations are starting to allow Athletic Trainers to do more and more.

Ok, but until it's in black and white that an Athletic Trainer can approve the return of a player who has been unconscious you can't allow their return. By doing so, you are asking for a court date.

Just my opinion (and others), but I believe you are wrong by allowing the player to return based on an AT's opinion. As I said, do as you wish, but you are asking to open a big can of worms.

[Hartee14]

Let me ask this question. What if you deem the player was not unconscious and the Athletic Trainer said he was unconscious. Would you let the player return?

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by Hartee14

Let me ask this question. What if you deem the player was not unconscious and the Athletic Trainer said he was unconscious. Would you let the player return?

If anybody told me the player was unconscious I'm keeping him out until I get a doctor's note stating that he's okay to play. This is not a two-way street. Let's be clear, we're concerned about a concussion. If a player exhibits any of the following symptoms I'm not allowing him back into the game until he has his note.

• Appears dazed or stunned
• Is confused about assignment
• Forgets plays
• Is unsure of game, score, or opponent
• Moves clumsily
• Answers questions slowly
• Loses consciousness
• Shows behavior or personality changes
• Can't recall events prior to hit
• Can't recall events after hit

Or the athlete himself might report the following symptoms if he has a concussion, including a:

• Headache
• Nausea
• Balance problems or dizziness
• Double or fuzzy vision
• Sensitivity to light or noise
• Feeling sluggish
• Feeling foggy or groggy
• Concentration or memory problems
• Confusion

Other important facts about concussions include that they:

• are caused by a bump, blow, or jolt to the head
• can occur even if the athlete doesn't lose consciousness
• can happen in any sport
• may not cause symptoms until days or weeks after the injury
• can cause brain swelling, permanent brain damage, or even death, if an athlete has a second concussion before fulling recovering from a first one

[eagle_12]

Originally Posted by waltjp

• Appears dazed or stunned
• Is confused about assignment
• Forgets plays
• Is unsure of game, score, or opponent
• Moves clumsily
• Answers questions slowly
• Loses consciousness
• Shows behavior or personality changes
• Can't recall events prior to hit
• Can't recall events after hit

Or the athlete himself might report the following symptoms if he has a concussion, including a:

• Headache
• Nausea
• Balance problems or dizziness
• Double or fuzzy vision
• Sensitivity to light or noise
• Feeling sluggish
• Feeling foggy or groggy
• Concentration or memory problems
• Confusion

Other important facts about concussions include that they:

• are caused by a bump, blow, or jolt to the head
• can occur even if the athlete doesn't lose consciousness
• can happen in any sport
• may not cause symptoms until days or weeks after the injury
• can cause brain swelling, permanent brain damage, or even death, if an athlete has a second concussion before fulling recovering from a first one

Who are you to say that the player can't play if they exhibit signs of a concussion. We can only limit return to play in the event of an apparent LOC not a concussion.

This discussion is very trying for me because I am both and umpire and an Athletic Trainer. The rule clearly states that in the event of apparent LOC then the player must have written permission/clearance from a MD. Let me tell you something, any ATC worth anything, and that has any clue, will not allow a player to RTP if there is any thought that there was LOC. Any time I have apparent LOC with my athletes, their in the ER asap.

I think that umpires need to be aware of LOC. Reading this I'm not sure that you guys know the difference between a concussion and LOC. Dazed/Confused/Dizzy/Amnesia, all that from the list above does not equal a loss of consciousness.

I think that, and the way that I would handle this situation if there is no ATC present, is after everything calms down, as the coach and I are discussing who the replacement is, I would tell the coach that in my opinion that player had a LOC and state why that is (unresponsive, blacked out, etc). If he asks me why I feel that way, then i explain my medical experience. I truely believe that if this happens, 1. the coach doesn't try to put the kid in, and 2. he won't have a problem with me saying hey I feel this way and this is what i observed. I don't think that he needs to be told that the player cannot return unless a doc's note is present, becasue he's going to seek one out maybe. Also, it needs to be noted on the line-up cards that there was LOC and why. And if the coaches have a problem, all you have to tell them is Tough crap, let move on

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by Hartee14

Let me ask this question. What if you deem the player was not unconscious and the Athletic Trainer said he was unconscious. Would you let the player return?

I would have to evaluate the situation on an individual basis. No one-size-fits-all answer. Depending on the situation, and the trainer, I might allow his assessment to help form my decision.

There's no rule against that.

But there is a rule about allowing an player rendered unconcious to return the game without written authorization from a physician. So, if the AT convinces me that the player was unconcious, the player will need that note to get back in the game.

And if I am to err, I will err toward the side of caution. If the trainer is adamant that the player was knocked out, the kid is probably gone until complying with the rules for coming back.

[Hartee14]

The fact of the matter is I hope this hardly ever happens to anyone because it is one of those situations where you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by Hartee14

Let me ask this question. What if you deem the player was not unconscious and the Athletic Trainer said he was unconscious. Would you let the player return?

If the AT said he was not fit for play, I'd take his word for it. In this case, he's an expert.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

If the AT said he was not fit for play, I'd take his word for it. In this case, he's an expert.

This I would agree with. But it's not a 2 way street -- I would not allow the player back in without the written authorization from the doctor.

Horse beaten.