One of those days.....

[jkumpire]

Thanks men for all the responses:

I am irritated at some, but that is how you learn:

1. Excuse the misapplication of the word "bury". I should have edited the post. It was an illegal slide, it was a FPSR violation, but R1 did not "bury" F6 like a runner burying a catcher at home plate. I thought for a second about MC, but it was not MC. It was a FPSR violation and an illegal slide violation. I have ejected people for MC, this was not MC. He didn't run over F6, he made illegal contact.

2. Men, you don't understand something, I was not on the field when the deal was made. Did they dress a manager? Was there a JV kid at the game not in uniform because there was no Varsity game that day? How in heaven's name do I know? I only found out about it after the game when I asked my partner who was the UIC if that was a legal player/sub. I won't detail the conversation, but let's suffice it say that I was not overly happy about it. At the time when I am coming back onto the field, and I am told we are ready to play, you're telling me I should have so little trust in my partner I should say: "Well (partner), is this a legal sub? Where did he come from?"

Okay, next time I'll throw my partner under the bus, eject at least one manager, if not two, and win the fight in the parking lot after the game.

3. In this situation, where a coach is dealing with something he has never seen before, and especially with the state I work in that does not allow protests, this was IMO, a rare time when a rule book could be helpful to clearing up a problem. I knew the rule, my partner did to (I assume). In retrospect, I should not have gotten the book out. But I chose to try not to get into an argument with a probable ejection of a manager whose team just lost a player. Obviously that was a mistake, if I was on the field, this would have never happened.

If I was looking for scalps, or to prove I could have gotten them yesterday, I could have proved I was the hardest, toughest umpire in the Eastern US. But the game is for the kids, not my ego. I've dumped enough people to prove my bonafides in this area.

4. I would be interested to hear how you would handle it if the other manager said, 'let me pick a sub from your bench." If I was there, the answer is NO. Period. End of conversation. How do you handle the ensuing argument? If they refuse to hear no, do you eject people until you get your way, forfeit the game, or walk off the field?

5.I could say other stuff, but let's leave it here for now. One last lesson for me, be very careful what you put on the internet. I was and am irritated about this situation, I should not have let this out in public, since now I am not only irritated, I look like a fool in some of your eyes. That stings even more.

[MichaelVA2000]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

4. I would be interested to hear how you would handle it if the other manager said, 'let me pick a sub from your bench." If I was there, the answer is NO. Period. End of conversation. How do you handle the ensuing argument? If they refuse to hear no, do you eject people until you get your way, forfeit the game, or walk off the field?

Coach, you can continue with eight. Let's play ball now. If the coach refuses to take the field, forfeit the game. If the game is forfeited, you and your partner leave the field together.

[jkumpire]

Michael,

I would be very interested to find out what your or my HS state association would say in response to your report to them about this forfeit...

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Michael,

I would be very interested to find out what your or my HS state association would say in response to your report to them about this forfeit...

I'd guess it would go something like this: "The coach refused to take the field? Good forfeit. Oh, here's a fine for the coach and a few days off to think about his actions."

[charliej47]

I once had to forfeit a H.S. game because the coach refused to comply with an order I gave him and Ohio and his school backed me of the forfeit. The coach was not asked back the next year.

Hmmmmmmmm....

Why did you call a balk on the pick off attempt at 1st base? Did the pitcher not step directly to the bag?

Why did you leave the field to get a rule book. I have NEVER done this, nor EVER seen that done in a high school game. Yes, the NCAA allows this, but it is only for the official to look something up in the book.

To not confer with your partner about a misapplied rule, is, well, bad! Ok, he was the UIC, and ultimately, it is his call, but I would have been having a seriously pointed discussion during and after the game about this.

[jkumpire]

rei,

FED Case Book 6.2.4J and comment A, p. 53.

As to the book, it was a mistake-- but the FED umpire's manual does recommend that the umpires have access to a rule book for situations like this. We did have a disucssion after the game.

[jkumpire]

Yes Bob, you and Michael are probably right. But I would not be happy about ending a game like this, would you?

[MichaelVA2000]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Yes Bob, you and Michael are probably right. But I would not be happy about ending a game like this, would you?

I would not be happy that the game ended this way either, but I would be very satisfied knowing that my partner and I enforced the rules the game was ment to be played under.

[jkumpire]

Casebook p.53, 6.2.4j: "Proximity is umpire judgment and is based on whether the fielder is close enough to the base to legitimately make a play on the runner."

So it is a matter of distance and ability to make a play by F3. In this situation he was 20' or more away, was not in the process of making a play, and was in no position to make a play. I stand by what I said, even if it was not to everyone's liking.

Also, with respect, the mother of all mistakes was not going out to get a rule book. It was an error, but it was done for a legit reason with good intentions on my part. The thing did blow up in my face, but I can guarantee you that nobody at the game other than me cared about this, and nobody but us cares about it now. And that may just be the most frustrating thing of all.

Could we lock up this thread now?

[UMP25]

You said FED's standard's were looser than OBR or NCAA. That is inaccurate. Neither OBR nor NCAA has any requirement on F3's proximity. The wording of your OP implied you were referring to OBR and NCAA.

BTW, because I don't do FED ball by my own choosing--I'd rather stick to this world when umpiring baseball--I don't reply with rules explanations dealing with FED. I stick to what I know best, that being OBR and NCAA.

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Casebook p.53, 6.2.4j: "Proximity is umpire judgment and is based on whether the fielder is close enough to the base to legitimately make a play on the runner."

So it is a matter of distance and ability to make a play by F3. In this situation he was 20' or more away, was not in the process of making a play, and was in no position to make a play. I stand by what I said, even if it was not to everyone's liking.

Also, with respect, the mother of all mistakes was not going out to get a rule book. It was an error, but it was done for a legit reason with good intentions on my part. The thing did blow up in my face, but I can guarantee you that nobody at the game other than me cared about this, and nobody but us cares about it now. And that may just be the most frustrating thing of all.

Could we lock up this thread now?

Well, again, I am no fortune teller. When that pitcher goes to make his move to first, ANYTHING can happen. I am NOT in the mind set to award bases when the pitcher is doing stuff right. If I was evaluating you on this situation, I would stand by my way of thinking. But, I wasn't, and you seemingly got away with it.

I am concerned about how you are taking your lumps right now.

Originally Posted by jkumpire

rei,

FED Case Book 6.2.4J and comment A, p. 53.

As to the book, it was a mistake-- but the FED umpire's manual does recommend that the umpires have access to a rule book for situations like this. We did have a disucssion after the game.

I knew that was going to be what you would site for justification to call a balk.

So, with that in mind, that F3 is "20' off the bag". Do you think he could make a play on the runner from that far away if the runner slipped and fell? He most certainly could! Are you a fortune teller and can tell when and if the runner might slip and fall returning to the bag? Heck, I call out a runner about every 3rd game because they slip and fall on their way back to 1st! IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME!

I would not be so quick to assume that a play cannot be made. The pitcher made a legal pick off attempt. For me, F3 is going to need to be pretty close to F9 before I am willing to say he is not close enough to make a play. You get what I am saying? New guys that I mentor bring this up every year because it seems to happen every year. It almost always turns into something nasty for them when they balk it. Then I tell them to quit balking that "stretch" of a balk, and when they do, they quit getting nasty arguments about it. Maybe the offensive coach says "Hey, F3 is off the bag". Simply they reply "Coach, he is in proximity". That has ALWAYS ended the discussion with no further complaint.

Keep the rule book in the car. After 22 years of doing this, I can tell you that it will lead to nothing but trouble to go digging around in a rule book during the game. The only time I would consider this is if I was unsure, and the ruling would have an outcome in the game. I will never let a coaches request lead me to looking it up during the game. You were sure you had it right, and delayed the game to humor the coach who doesn't know jack, then you got your partner making deals without you there. NOW do you see why I say "Keep the rule book in the car" and don't go get it during a game?

[jkumpire]

Two good points, but...

1. you cannot assume the offense is going to screw up so F3 can make a play here. If he is not in the vicinity of the base, it is a balk. Even though FED has a looser standard than NCAA or OBR, it is still a balk here.

I have almost 30 years experience, and yes, I should have left the book where it was. But, under the circumstances as I had them at the field at the time (delay, well I have time..) I thought it was okay to do.

.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Two good points, but...

If he is not in the vicinity of the base, it is a balk. Even though FED has a looser standard than NCAA or OBR, it is still a balk here.

This is an inaccurate statement. The fielder's proximity to the base is irrelevant.