How to handle?

[Rufus]

Had a situation last night where a ball was hit to our 2b who bobbles the ball, gains control, and throws to our 1b (full disclosure, my son was playing 1b). 1b makes a large split reaching for the throw, catches it, and holds the position. There were runners on base so the field ump was in between the mound and first (I know there is a term for the positions of the field ump, just not sure what that is). Field ump calls him safe and motions that 1b came off the bag (for what it's worth the 3b coach and bench coach of the other team - their bench was on the 1b side of the field - both came up to me after the 1/2 inning and said his foot was on the bag).

I started to go onto the field to ask the field ump what he saw and, assuming he would reiterate his call that 1b came off the bag, wanted to ask if we could ask the PU if he had a different view (there were other base runners so PU may have been looking at them - I still wanted to ask the question though). I knew that yelling across the field "Can we ask your partner if he saw it differently?" wasn't appropriate and so wanted to have the conversation in a normal speaking voice.

Before I got 2 steps out of the dugout the PU informed me that it was a judgment call and that I cannot be on the field. Not wanting to delay the game or, more to the point, get tossed from the game, I went back to the dugout.

My question is this - when, if ever, can a coach come onto the field to discuss a play such as this? Also, when, if ever, can you request that the umpire making a call see if his partner had the same thing?

Please understand that I'm not asking this just to get the call reversed. We won the game 14-9 so there's no bitterness or anything going on here. I'm more interested in making sure I don't waste time during a game with events such as this if there is no recourse. I also realize that sometimes officials get "straight-lined" or don't see a play clearly that the other official may. My intent is to try and figure out if there is a way/time to ask their partner for their view or if I just need to get over it and play ball.

Thanks in advance.

[dash_riprock]

You are entitled to ask the BU what he saw after you ask for, and are granted, time (if the ball isn't dead already). Sounds like PU should switch to de-caf.

[rngrck]

Agree, but as BU I'm not going to ask for help on this call. You may want to ask for help but a PU should never over rule the BU on a judgement call on the bases. Now a rule interpretation, thats something else.

[ozzy6900]

As long as you are the Manager or Head Coach (Scholastic ball), you have every right to properly question the call with the calling umpire.

As a side note, my son was also a 1st baseman (when he wasn't pitching). He also was able to go into a full split (God, my crotch ached every time I saw him do this) and I learned one very important thing. When a good first baseman goes into a split such as this, they are almost always anchored against the bag solidly! This is what allows them to keep their balance and goet all the way out (ouch!). They do not split as a dancer does (both feet moving away from each other). I also learned that once these first baseman go into this motion, they cannot stop it (unlike a dancer who can). So when I see this action, I am almost positive that the first baseman is on the bag.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

As a side note, my son was also a 1st baseman (when he wasn't pitching). He also was able to go into a full split (God, my crotch ached every time I saw him do this) and I learned one very important thing. When a good first baseman goes into a split such as this, they are almost always anchored against the bag solidly! This is what allows them to keep their balance and goet all the way out (ouch!). They do not split as a dancer does (both feet moving away from each other). I also learned that once these first baseman go into this motion, they cannot stop it (unlike a dancer who can). So when I see this action, I am almost positive that the first baseman is on the bag.

Thanks for the feedback - I appreciate it. I had thought he was being a bit "restrictive" but, remembering that we're there to play a game and not have me get into a debate with the umpire, will always just go back to the dugout.

Ozzy - yes, it is painful to watch. The interesting thing is that he had another similar play where he stretched out like that a couple of innings later, kept his foot on the base, and the batter-runner was called out. Discussing it with my wife on the way home we thought that it might have not been called the first time because it isn't "normal" for 11U players in a rec league to stretch like that and still stay in contact with the base. Once the BU saw he could, however, maybe he looked more carefully next time? Not sure, but still happy with the result!

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by rngrck

...but a PU should never over rule the BU on a judgement call on the bases.

Oh? You're more naive than I thought if you believe this. There are certain situations where judgment calls are reversed by one umpire or the other. It happens from MLB on down, too.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by UMP25

Oh? You're more naive than I thought if you believe this. There are certain situations where judgment calls are reversed by one umpire or the other. It happens from MLB on down, too.

We still utilize this method: The dissenting umpire, when asked, explains what he saw to the calling umpire. The calling umpire then reverses his own call.

We don't let it appear that there was an "over-ruling." That can open a can of worms later in the game. We get together and the calling umpire gets the call right, when necessary.

[UMP25]

Indeed. I'll go one further: there is a specific play where I don't change the call; I change the umpire. When I employ this mechanic with a partner, I have never had an argument. Plus, it looks much crisper and fluid. It involves F3 pulling his foot and the base umpire quickly going to his partner for assistance. If it's done properly, it doesn't even look like a changed call or an overruling.

[mbyron]

My association recommends this mechanic in these situations:

Play happens at 1B, BU in infield, has some doubt about a pulled foot.
BU (to PU): "Did you see a pulled foot?"

PU: "No."

BU: "Then the batter's out!"

This question gets a yes/no answer, and it's about what PU saw: if he was watching something else (OBS/INT, for instance), he can still say no, he didn't see a pulled foot.

I'm not certain I like the mechanic overall -- I was trained to get my own call first, and ask for help later -- but I understand its rationale.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Rufus

My question is this - when, if ever, can a coach come onto the field to discuss a play such as this? Also, when, if ever, can you request that the umpire making a call see if his partner had the same thing?

Technically speaking the only time you have a RIGHT to come onto the field is to question a rule interpretation.

Example: using FED rules

B1 is obstructed rounding first base. After playing action ends BU simply protects the runner back to first only.

According to FED rules this is a mis-application of the playing rules ( In FED B1 gets second base) and you as manager have a RIGHT to request TIME and get an explanation.

After the explanation if you still do not agree you can then lodge a protest (assuming the HS district you play in has protest procedures)

For JUDGEMENT calls of which safe / outs are includied technically speaking you have NO such right.

Now it's been accepted practice to Grant the manager TIME and allow him to question the umpire who made the call, however, the Umpires do not HAVE to honor this request since it was a judgement call. It's similar to calling balls/ strikes. No matter how upset the manager is, we do not allow the manager to constantly question the strike zone.

In your situation, the umpire should have granted you time to speak to the BU.

However, keep in mind that the BU is under NO obligation to check with his partner. He may or he may not it's still his call.

You can also write a report and submit to the umpire association about the conduct demonstrated by this umpiring crew.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by mbyron

My association recommends this mechanic in these situations:

Play happens at 1B, BU in infield, has some doubt about a pulled foot.
BU (to PU): "Did you see a pulled foot?"

PU: "No."

BU: "Then the batter's out!"

This question gets a yes/no answer, and it's about what PU saw: if he was watching something else (OBS/INT, for instance), he can still say no, he didn't see a pulled foot.

I'm not certain I like the mechanic overall -- I was trained to get my own call first, and ask for help later -- but I understand its rationale.

Sounds like what I do and what I recommend. I'm probably in the minority, too, regarding this mechanic--indeed, at the Cleveland NCAA meetings when this play was discussed in a breakout session, the 2 gents leading the discussion were vehemently opposed to this. I don't see why, either. If it's done correctly, meaning quickly and emphatically, it looks good and accomplishes the same thing as calling time, discussing it, then changing it. Granted, we're there to get the call right, but if we can do so without a typical committee meeting on the field, is that not the best way to do it?

[btdt]

Originally Posted by UMP25

Oh? You're more naive than I thought if you believe this. There are certain situations where judgment calls are reversed by one umpire or the other. It happens from MLB on down, too.

I am not aware of any rule that authorizes any umpire to over rule another umpires judgment call. Perhaps incorrect rule interpretation may be corrected by the UIC.

As plate umpire I have no problem allowing the head coach to go onto the field and speak with the umpire who made the call.

As base umpire I have no problem speaking to the head coach, but I will not change a judgment call. "Coach, in my judgment he was ..."

If I am going to get help on this play it will be before I make a call .... if possible .... if not possible to ask my partner " was he on the base?" because of action of the other runners, I make my call and move on.

Those looking for perfection need to find a different hobby.

[canadaump6]

Originally Posted by GarthB

We still utilize this method: The dissenting umpire explains what he saw to the calling umpire. The calling umpire then reverses his own call.

We don't let it appear that there was an "over-ruling." That can open a can of worms later in the game. We get together and the calling umpire gets the call right, when necessary.

I had an umpire come up to me uninvited a few years ago and tell me the running lane interference wasn't called in that league. He was an old guard and so I gave in. Now I'd be either ejecting him from the game or walking off the diamond.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by btdt

I am not aware of any rule that authorizes any umpire to over rule another umpires judgment call. Perhaps incorrect rule interpretation may be corrected by the UIC.

True, one umpire can't overrule another's call. That does not mean the calling umpire can't ask his partner what he saw and change his orginal call based upon that information.

As long as a coach asks the calling umpire to consider getting help in a calm, respectful manner, I don't have a problem with it. Now if this is a regular occurrence after every close call, I'm not as likely to consider going for help.

c-ump6, umpires don't eject each other from the game.

[rookieblue]

Now I'd be either ejecting him from the game or walking off the diamond.

What a piece of work. I really have to remember to log in before reading these threads.