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Old Thu Dec 30, 2004, 09:12am
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In last night's Boys varsity game, A1 is shooting a 3pt shot from the corner. B1 coming out strong from the lane area. Rather than contest the shot, B1 bends his body and fakes an undercut move while A1 is airborn. No contact is made. 2 or 3 minutes later, the play is repeated.

Should this be ignored? Should something be said to the coach or player?

The game to this point had be physical, but not out of hand due to the game management of the officials.
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Old Thu Dec 30, 2004, 09:29am
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While you may not like it, my belief is that this defender's action is legal until contact is made, since he is not going for the eyes. If contact happens I'm calling an intentional personal foul at least.
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Old Thu Dec 30, 2004, 09:30am
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If the shooter is already airborne (likely releasing the shot) and there is no contact upon his landing, then what can it be? Sounds like nothing to me (except ineffective defense).
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Old Thu Dec 30, 2004, 11:02am
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The swinging of the elbows is a violation when no contact is made. The "spirt of the rule" is that the excessive swinging is intimidation, making the opponet fear the potential of being struck.

Is there a correlation that the action of the defender attempting to intimidate the shooter?
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Old Thu Dec 30, 2004, 11:20am
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Quote:
Originally posted by ref2coach
The swinging of the elbows is a violation when no contact is made. The "spirt of the rule" is that the excessive swinging is intimidation, making the opponet fear the potential of being struck.

Is there a correlation that the action of the defender attempting to intimidate the shooter?
I'd say the spirit of the rule is that the motion could cause severe contact if it lands. Half the time, when a player does this, the fact that there is no contact is simply a matter of fortune for both players.
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Old Thu Dec 30, 2004, 11:31am
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The primary purpose of penalizng the "swinging of the elbows" movements is to reduce the potential towards rough play (Comments on Revisons 2002-03). It states nothng about intimidating the opponent. If you feel this action is baiting rough play (by getting a reaction from the shooter), then tell him to knock it off and clean it up. With no contact, it is likely to be ignored by the shooter who is following his shot.
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Old Thu Dec 30, 2004, 11:53am
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Quote:
Originally posted by nine01c
The primary purpose of penalizng the "swinging of the elbows" movements is to reduce the potential towards rough play (Comments on Revisons 2002-03). It states nothng about intimidating the opponent. If you feel this action is baiting rough play (by getting a reaction from the shooter), then tell him to knock it off and clean it up. With no contact, it is likely to be ignored by the shooter who is following his shot.
Baiting? That seems to be quite a stretch.

Ignored by the shooter? Not likely.

Most times it is a natural reaction to prepare for a collision by flinching when a defender appears to be coming in for a tackle. If this is a violation then I am not aware of it and would like to see a rules citation. But, if there is contact when using this method of intimidation I would surely go with the intentional foul.
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Old Thu Dec 30, 2004, 11:57am
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I got nuthin' on the first scenario. It may be a little cheap and immature, and I may not like it, but I can't say it's illegal.
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Old Thu Dec 30, 2004, 12:10pm
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Maybe "baiting" isn't a good word. How about "increasing the potential for" (opposite of reducing the potential for rough play per Rule Book). My point was that it could possibly encourage rough play if the shooter reacts (retaliates, makes a comment) but on the other hand, it may not. If you see tempers flairing, a little preventive officiating can help in this case to clean it up before a problem occurs. Otherwise, ignore it. Refnrev is correct, the action by the defensive player it is not illegal (without contact).
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Old Thu Dec 30, 2004, 12:14pm
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He did nothing against the rules

Quote:
Originally posted by Ref in PA
In last night's Boys varsity game, A1 is shooting a 3pt shot from the corner. B1 coming out strong from the lane area. Rather than contest the shot, B1 bends his body and fakes an undercut move while A1 is airborn. No contact is made. 2 or 3 minutes later, the play is repeated.

Should this be ignored? Should something be said to the coach or player?

The game to this point had be physical, but not out of hand due to the game management of the officials.
Happens all the time. We used to do this all the time when we played. Now we used to also pop them in the stomach as we would go by and they never called that (which is against the rules)

I would say don't go looking for something that is not there. Just call the game as it is played.

thanks
David
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Old Thu Dec 30, 2004, 01:49pm
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Obviously "no contact, no foul," and it is not an illegal move.

I posed the question to ask if you would say something to the player/captain/coach if this occurred in a physical game.

I have seen contact from this move and it was not pretty. I don't think the defensive player was trying to make contact, but accidents happen. This type of play in my opinion is not a "basketball" move. There is no attempt to play the ball, only to intimidate/scare the shooter. In a game that is already physical, it can get into the head of the shooter. So, would you say anything to anybody or not?
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Old Thu Dec 30, 2004, 04:49pm
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The defensive player did nothing wrong, you can't really tell him not to do it. But you can warn him that if contact does happen that it will be charged as an intentional foul.
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Old Sat Jan 01, 2005, 04:28am
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Quote:
Originally posted by ref18
The defensive player did nothing wrong, you can't really tell him not to do it. But you can warn him that if contact does happen that it will be charged as an intentional foul.
A threat to do harm is nothing? I could see this being unsportsmanlike in some cases.
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Old Sat Jan 01, 2005, 12:35pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ref2coach
The swinging of the elbows is a violation when no contact is made. The "spirt of the rule" is that the excessive swinging is intimidation, making the opponet fear the potential of being struck.

Is there a correlation that the action of the defender attempting to intimidate the shooter?
The elbow rule was not written because the motion is intimidating. It was written because of safety concerns. Swinging them excessively is a violation, per the rule. There is no rule that states a player can't do what is described in this discussion.

If you want to clean this up, call a foul. I realize it's not a foul if there's no contact. But all you'll have to do is call it once and they'll stop it. Just make sure the play is opposite table.

David, I called a stomach "pop" on Thurday night.
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Old Sat Jan 01, 2005, 12:35pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Camron Rust
Quote:
Originally posted by ref18
The defensive player did nothing wrong, you can't really tell him not to do it. But you can warn him that if contact does happen that it will be charged as an intentional foul.
A threat to do harm is nothing? I could see this being unsportsmanlike in some cases.
Have you ever called an unsporting T in this situation?
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