NCAA P/DH : pitcher stays as DH

[jmeeks]

Rule 5-5c AR
Unsure if this refers to 9 or 10 man lineup or if it matters?

Question: If P/DH is removed, is coach required to announce then that he will remain as DH? (if he doesn't is that player done)
I realize it could have been prevented had I asked, but fact is I didn't and op coach knew it.

Thanks

[jmeeks]

NCAA DH rule.

Pitcher is the DH, same person, 9 man lineup.

[DG]

Originally Posted by jmeeks

Rule 5-5c AR
Unsure if this refers to 9 or 10 man lineup or if it matters?

Question: If P/DH is removed, is coach required to announce then that he will remain as DH? (if he doesn't is that player done).

Thanks

If it is 10 man lineup the P is not P/DH. The A.R. seems clear, if P is removed as P and expected to remain as DH coach must say so. If he listed him as P/DH on the starting lineup (many do) then I would not pick nits with him if he failed to mention when removing.

[socalblue1]

With the P/DH it depends on when he is removed from the game. (From your post I assume while on defense). As the NCAA DH rules is the most screwed up ... OK, that's a different topic!

In this situation I simply intercept the head coach on hos way to the dugout and ask. If the pitching coach made the change I will walk toward the dugout and ask the head coach. It's a simple thing that will prevent a potential crap storm.

[bob jenkins]

Based on what's posted on a different board, what JMeeks is really asking:

NCAA rules. 9 man line-up (P/DH). Coach changes pitchers (I assume while on defense). Nothing is said about the DH, nor does the umpire ask.

What happens when the original pitcher shows up to hit (in the "correct spot") the next inning?

IMO, the original pitcher is NOT still the DH unless something is said during the change. If the change is reported as "Smith for Jones", then that's exactly what it is. If Jones was the P/DH, then Smith is now the P/DH, and JOnes is completely out of the game.

[johnnyg08]

Ahhh yes...the good ol' "Dave Winfield rule"

[socalblue1]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Based on what's posted on a different board, what JMeeks is really asking:

NCAA rules. 9 man line-up (P/DH). Coach changes pitchers (I assume while on defense). Nothing is said about the DH, nor does the umpire ask.

What happens when the original pitcher shows up to hit (in the "correct spot") the next inning?

IMO, the original pitcher is NOT still the DH unless something is said during the change. If the change is reported as "Smith for Jones", then that's exactly what it is. If Jones was the P/DH, then Smith is now the P/DH, and JOnes is completely out of the game.

Bob,

In NCAA should we have a P/DH situation and the pitcher is removed while on defense the assumption is no change to the DH unless advised at that time. This has been the answer at every NCAA clinic I have attended.

See my comments above - this is a critical time for the PU to be proactive.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by socalblue1

this is a critical time for the PU to be proactive.

I agree. I don't see (either way) a clear answer in the book.

[socalblue1]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I agree. I don't see (either way) a clear answer in the book.

Rule 7 Section 2b & notes give us a pretty good hint.

b. It is not mandatory that a player be designated to bat for the pitcher. If
the pitcher is listed in the starting batting order, the pitcher automatically
becomes the DH. In this case, the pitcher is to be considered as two
players, both pitcher and DH, and can be substituted for as such.

Note: For substitution purposes, the pitcher is not to be considered a defensive
position.

So as two separate players, when I have the P/DH replaced on the mound I would assume he is still the DH until otherwise notified. Should a new batter come to the plate in the DH position after that I'm going to stop and confirm that this is a simple DH substitution.

[DG]

Originally Posted by socalblue1

So as two separate players, when I have the P/DH replaced on the mound I would assume he is still the DH until otherwise notified. Should a new batter come to the plate in the DH position after that I'm going to stop and confirm that this is a simple DH substitution.

The A.R. does not support your assumption. The coach must say something to indicate P will stay on as DH. And why wouldn't he if the pitcher is a good hitter and has been hitting for himself.

I recall a certain college club team with a particularly good hitting CF/P. When pitching he was always listed in starting lineup as P/DH and remained in the game if relieved. Coach never missed stating that he was staying in as DH if removed as pitcher. In a game when he wasn't the starting pitcher he played CF.

It's not too much to ask of a coach. It would be a good question to ask, from a preventive umpiring perspective, when the change is made.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by DG

The A.R. does not support your assumption. The coach must say something to indicate P will stay on as DH. And why wouldn't he if the pitcher is a good hitter and has been hitting for himself.

I recall a certain college club team with a particularly good hitting CF/P. When pitching he was always listed in starting lineup as P/DH and remained in the game if relieved. Coach never missed stating that he was staying in as DH if removed as pitcher. In a game when he wasn't the starting pitcher he played CF.

It's not too much to ask of a coach. It would be a good question to ask, from a preventive umpiring perspective, when the change is made.

Rule reference please.

I was always under the assumption, 2 seperate entities, P and DH. When OP was made, I asked for a distinction to be made between F1 R Jones and DH R Jones. That clarification was never made and I deleted my post as it was simply ignored. This whole P/DH seems rather vague and confusing. To say coach must announce DH substitution at the time of the pitching substitution doesn't follow the logical flow of the DH rule.

Will the NCAA ever change this horrendous rule?

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by SAump

Rule reference please.

I was always under the assumption, 2 seperate entities, P and DH. When OP was made, I asked for a distinction to be made between F1 R Jones and DH R Jones. That clarification was never made and I deleted my post as it was simply ignored. This whole P/DH seems rather vague and confusing. To say coach must announce DH substitution at the time of the pitching substitution doesn't follow the logical flow of the DH rule.

Without looking at a book my first instinct is that if a player is listed as P/DH, and is substituted for on defense, he remains as DH. (We go from 9 man line up to 10 man lineup.) Now the next time this spot in the batting order comes up, if the current (substitute) pitcher comes up, I make him the new DH (back to a 9 man line up).

The reason I don't think its necessary to make the distinction at the first substitution is that a team can switch between 9 and 10 man line ups. Another thought that enters my mind is the fact that projected substitutions are not allowed. Quite interesting...