Employee - Ind Contractor - (real info request)

[mikebran]

It is not my intention to start a THREAD on this topic, however, is such is the case, so be it.

What I do request, is actual true information. IF you have such, I ask respectfully, that you share it with me via private email

[email protected]

Questions:

To baseball umpires who work amateur league baseball for remuneration. (HS and / or summer league, legion, connie mack, etc)

Do you or your association pay into your STATE'S Workers compensation system or Industrial Insurance (for job loss or medical coverage for injury).

related: Have you ever? Or is this a proposed future for you?

Do you or your association pay into your STATE'S UNEMPLOYMENT SECURITY group (unemployment insurance).

related: Have you ever? OR is this a proposed future for you?

Other than those here who get PAID at game sites with Cash.. does any association provide anything to umpires at year end other than NOTHING or a plain 1099? In other words, is ANY association or group withholding income or social security taxes?

related: Is there any umpire here working AMATUER ball that is or is considered to be an EMPLOYEE of any group or organization. If yes, what is it that determines that definitively?

Questions answered in advance:

I am a Board Member of a LARGE (200) member baseball umpire association and definitely have good reasons for this inquiry.

I look forward to private conversations with many of my officating bretheran. Thanks in advance.

I sent you a private e-mail and I hope this helps.

[Tim C]

I just dropped you a PM and explained Oregon's rules for both issues.

TC

[fitump56]

Yea, let me email you private and confidential information about my org.

[MajorDave]

I'm not a lawyer but I play one, on occasion, on TV. Just kidding.

Actually, I was one in real life (I quit practicing three years ago) and I have litigated this issue with other types of professions other than officiating.

Most professions and employers spend lots of time and money trying to have their workers classified as independent contractors to avoid the expenses of unemployment insurance, FICA, income tax withholding, workers compensation insurance, etc. as they all require some sort of employer accounting and funds matching and ultimately expense for the employer.

The real key issue for the IRS and most courts in the nation is the right to control the work. When to work? What to do at work? How to do the actual job? Where the job is performed? What the workers wear while at work? Who owns the equipment and machinery used in the work? These are all important questions and the answers determine how the issue will be decided. There is no hard and fast rule but the right to control the work is the essential question. The intent of the parties at the outset of the agreement is also a consideration but is not a paramount consideration. Both parties can agree that they intended to create an independent contractor relationship but the government tends favor employer-employee status due to the tax and workers compensation factors.

Whatever happens good luck in your endeavors.

(disclaimer: This is not an attempt to offer specific legal advice. It is merely an attempt to make you aware of the depth of the legal issues in play here. Please discuss your specific facts and circumstances with a competent attorney in your local area.) The bar association makes me say that.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by mikebran

It is not my intention to start a THREAD on this topic, however, is such is the case, so be it.

What I do request, is actual true information. IF you have such, I ask respectfully, that you share it with me via private email

Hi Mike:

Tee and some others sent you a private E-mail. Hopefully if the info is not confidential you or Tee can share with the group.

My only comment on this issue would be:

If umpires are or start getting treated as employees then the FEES will have to be grossed up so that net net you make the same otherwise it's my gut that umpires will start dropping "like flys" as financially it simply will not be worth it.

Pete Booth

[GarthB]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]

Hi Mike:

Tee and some others sent you a private E-mail. Hopefully if the info is not confidential you or Tee can share with the group.

My only comment on this issue would be:

If umpires are or start getting treated as employees then the FEES will have to be grossed up so that net net you make the same otherwise it's my gut that umpires will start dropping "like flys" as financially it simply will not be worth it.

Pete Booth

Pete:

One of the issues we are having in Washington, and I believe Oregon has a similar issue, is that our Employment Securities Department (Unemployment) and our Labor and Industries Department (Workman's Comp) have set a standard for independent contractors that is drastically different from IRS'.

One could be considered an employee by the Washington State and an Independent Contractror by IRS, or so I've been told by the IRS and the Washington Employment Securities Department.

[Publius]

It's a fascinating question relevant to individual umpires, since while associations and assignors (either upon orders from the leagues or of their own volition) frequently dictate, under threat of having one's schedule reduced or revoked, several things that indicate control lies with the employer, they make officials sign IC affadavits. These things include what the uniform will be, what mechanics will be used, arrival times, pre-game conferences with partners, acceptable attire to and from the game sites, attendance at clinics and meetings, etc.

It will be interesting to see which the IRS and the various states deem more evocative of IC status: what the parties say, or what they do. They've tended, in my experience, slightly more toward the former but the pendulum seems to be swinging the other way.

[SAump]

He never filed a W-4 form with his association, so he should consider himself an independent contractor. The IRS and others would need legislative authority to mandate a change in employment status.

Now to claim workman's comp or unemployment, I would ask him to address what benefits did he receive from said employer/association? The answer to that my friend is blowing in the wind.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by MajorDave

I'm not a lawyer but I play one, on occasion, on TV. Just kidding.

Actually, I was one in real life (I quit practicing three years ago) and I have litigated this issue with other types of professions other than officiating.

Most professions and employers spend lots of time and money trying to have their workers classified as independent contractors to avoid the expenses of unemployment insurance, FICA, income tax withholding, workers compensation insurance, etc. as they all require some sort of employer accounting and funds matching and ultimately expense for the employer.

Not counting the added liabilities, wrongful termination lawsuits, exit interviews....

The real key issue for the IRS and most courts in the nation is the right to control the work. When to work? What to do at work? How to do the actual job? Where the job is performed? What the workers wear while at work? Who owns the equipment and machinery used in the work? These are all important questions and the answers determine how the issue will be decided. There is no hard and fast rule but the right to control the work is the essential question. The intent of the parties at the outset of the agreement is also a consideration but is not a paramount consideration. Both parties can agree that they intended to create an independent contractor relationship but the government tends favor employer-employee status due to the tax and workers compensation factors.

Lesson being be precise, be arms length, violate as few of the IRS tests for IC as possible.

Any relation to Major Tom from Ground Control?

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by SAump

He never filed a W-4 form with his association, so he should consider himself an independent contractor. The IRS and others would need legislative authority to mandate a change in employment status.

Dream on. The IRS will simply declare you an employee, tax you accordingly, tax your now declared employer back witholding and then smile while you wait for the "legislative action" to remove the lien from yur house.

[jicecone]

This issue has been around for years and still with no resolution.

I have seen cases where some BOZO tries to claim unemployment or workers comp because officiating IS, their daytime job (not on a PRO level),and they get injured and can't work.

They don't understand what being and "independent contractor" is legally but need money to get by and reach for whatever they can. Sometimes its just greed also.

For the most part, SAump pretty much hit the nail on the head.

[socalblue1]

Originally Posted by SAump

He never filed a W-4 form with his association, so he should consider himself an independent contractor. The IRS and others would need legislative authority to mandate a change in employment status.

Now to claim workman's comp or unemployment, I would ask him to address what benefits did he receive from said employer/association? The answer to that my friend is blowing in the wind.

Filing a W-4 means nada - it's what the rules regarding IC status say not what one may do. So long as everyone follows the rules as set by the IRS there should be no problem.

On the state level there have been several attempts over the years to force those in IC status to pay into workers comp, unemployment &/or disability funds. I am not aware of any state being successful winning a court challenge on this issue (I could well be wrong here).