Going Solo

[CO ump]

Originally Posted by GarthB

When I worked a few one-man games back in the day, I agreed with you. Calling time does delay a game. Players hear time and wander. Coaches begin communicating with players....people just relax and then take time to get focused and back in position when play is called. The less often time is called the better.


In the extremely rare situation that something happens when your back is turned. Stop it and put it back where it was. No problem. If you are hustling, no one is going to b!tch. If it happens and you're strolling, then they will, and you'll deserve it.

This is what Frosh? JV? And one-man to boot. He!!, keep it going.

Garth am I reading this right? You're endorsing turning your back on a live ball.
Are there any other live ball situations that you endorse "do overs"

What if:
R2
sharp grounder to F6 he gloves it pump fakes to first, umpire swivels head to first, split second later realizes no throw was made, turns back to F6 and realizes he's missed a play on R2.
Should umpire stop play and put everyone back "sorry, do over, I missed it"
This case and above situation are both screw ups and umpire misses the play in both cases.
Why is one a do over and the other isn't?

[johnnyg08]

it's not a do over...it's understood where I work anyway, that with one man, when the play's over, it's over...watch any baseball game and there's "that down moment" where you walk back to your postion...you get caught turning your back during a play...that's a different story...it's not a do over...like I said before...if you want to call time, call time...there's nothing wrong with it...how much 1 man do you work??

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by CO ump

Garth am I reading this right? You're endorsing turning your back on a live ball.

This ties for the dumbest post on the internet.

Garth says: "If you screw up, here's how to deal with it."

CO Ump says: "So Garth, you're endorsing screwing up?"

Sheesh.

[CO ump]

Originally Posted by mbyron

This ties for the dumbest post on the internet.

Garth says: "If you screw up, here's how to deal with it."

CO Ump says: "So Garth, you're endorsing screwing up?"

Sheesh.

Mr. Byron,

Comprehension is everything

Garth said:
"In the extremely rare situation that something happens when your back is turned. Stop it and put it back where it was. No problem."

If time is called when you turn your back nothing can happen. Therefore it seems to me he is endorsing turning your back on a live ball.
Also he doesn't say it's rare to turn your back on a live ball, he's saying it's rare that something happens when you do turn your back.

The last line of his post is "He!! keep it going"
In context with the rest of his post one can only deduct that he means don't call time keep the ball live. Again this would be an endorsement of turning your back on a live ball.

If you think the only point of his post was how to deal with a screw up I ask you what screw up would that be?
That screw up would have to be turning your back on a live ball. The balance of his post does not at all indicate that he considers this a screw up, rather an unfortunate result of a conscious decision to keep the game moving by not calling time.

Hence my question:
Garth are you really endorsing turning your back on a live ball?

[johnnyg08]

What difference does it make to you?...pretty sure in a one man game...do what you wish...you want to call time, call time, Garth will do his thing...pretty sure he's capable of handling his situations...I'll answer your question for me...on how you're putting it, yes, from time to time I'll turn my back on a live ball when I'm working one-man...take away my birthday

[CO ump]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

What difference does it make to you?...pretty sure in a one man game...do what you wish...you want to call time, call time, Garth will do his thing...pretty sure he's capable of handling his situations...I'll answer your question for me...on how you're putting it, yes, from time to time I'll turn my back on a live ball when I'm working one-man...take away my birthday

johnny
If I said I use my left hand to signal strikes, you think you, Garth and few others might have a comment for me?
If I said I point to my partner with my right hand on an appeal and that's the best way to do it, I might get some feedback?
If I said I didn't like the pivot move and instead stayed on the outside because I got better angles, you think I might catch some flak?

So my question is What difference does it make to you?

It's a forum where opinions are shared and crtiques are given with or without permission and many umpires especially newer ones benefit.
Without going into the archives I'll venture to guess that Garth has many times corrected a stated rules interp or corrected a mechanic, not to show up the original poster but to make sure the umps reading the post are not misled.
It's the beauty of this forum that improper mechanics and bad rule interps ususally get vetted.

I'm sorry you're offended but bad mechanics are bad mechanics no matter who's performing or promoting them. If you disagree then say so but if you don't want to be critiqued then don't announce on the board what you're doing.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by CO ump

johnny
If I said I use my left hand to signal strikes, you think you, Garth and few others might have a comment for me?
If I said I point to my partner with my right hand on an appeal and that's the best way to do it, I might get some feedback?
If I said I didn't like the pivot move and instead stayed on the outside because I got better angles, you think I might catch some flak?

So my question is What difference does it make to you?

It's a forum where opinions are shared and crtiques are given with or without permission and many umpires especially newer ones benefit.
Without going into the archives I'll venture to guess that Garth has many times corrected a stated rules interp or corrected a mechanic, not to show up the original poster but to make sure the umps reading the post are not misled.
It's the beauty of this forum that improper mechanics and bad rule interps ususally get vetted.

I'm sorry you're offended but bad mechanics are bad mechanics no matter who's performing or promoting them. If you disagree then say so but if you don't want to be critiqued then don't announce on the board what you're doing.

I will contine to teach our umpires, that when faced with working one-man, instead of cancelling the game, work it to the best of your ability withn the limitation, hustle at the end of plays, without calling time, to get back to the plate so that you can get the game in before dusk. And, if someone tries to create a play situation, kill it and put everything back where it was...where it would be if time HAD been called, so that there is no difference in the outcome of the integrity of the game.

If I've disappointed you, I'm sorry. But I cannot get too excited about someone not agreeing with so-called "one man mechanics" used at a Frosh game.

If you want to compare that to misinterpreting rules that affect the integerity of the game at all levels, or missing a rotation or being out of position for a call you're reaching. Nothing in the way we work one man games results in the game ending any differently than it would using other "one-man" mechanics.

This much ado about nothing.

[CO ump]

Originally Posted by GarthB

If I've disappointed you, I'm sorry. But I cannot get too excited about someone not agreeing with so-called "one man mechanics" used at a Frosh game.

I'm not excited nor do I expect you to be, but I do think the freshman deserve as good an effort as any other level.

Originally Posted by GarthB

If you want to compare that to.... being out of position for a call you're reaching.

Actually when you turn your back on a live ball you are out of position

Originally Posted by GarthB

Nothing in the way we work one man games results in the game ending any differently than it would using other "one-man" mechanics.

This much ado about nothing.

It's nothing until a crap storm hits because an ump is denying a team an earned advantage because you turned your back on a live ball.

However you can avoid that by covering this in pregame:

"Coaches, I'm out here by myself so when I turn my back to go home the ball is dead, well kinda dead because I'm not going to put it back in play but if anything happens while my back is turned we're gonna play it like it was dead and just because I turn back around doesn't mean I'm ready, I might be wiping sweat off my brow and not yet focused or maybe putting my mask on and not ready to watch a snap throw, so the kids are just going to have to guess as to when play starts again because calling time and pointing the ball back in play is too much effort, you do know I'm out here by myself?
Let me assure you this is for your benefit not mine, you'll thank me when the game's over."

Yep I think if you covered it in pregame you'd be good to go!

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by CO ump

Mr. Byron,

Comprehension is everything

Garth said:
"In the extremely rare situation that something happens when your back is turned. Stop it and put it back where it was. No problem."

If time is called when you turn your back nothing can happen. Therefore it seems to me he is endorsing turning your back on a live ball.
Also he doesn't say it's rare to turn your back on a live ball, he's saying it's rare that something happens when you do turn your back.

The last line of his post is "He!! keep it going"
In context with the rest of his post one can only deduct that he means don't call time keep the ball live. Again this would be an endorsement of turning your back on a live ball.

If you think the only point of his post was how to deal with a screw up I ask you what screw up would that be?
That screw up would have to be turning your back on a live ball. The balance of his post does not at all indicate that he considers this a screw up, rather an unfortunate result of a conscious decision to keep the game moving by not calling time.

Hence my question:
Garth are you really endorsing turning your back on a live ball?

No, what I'm saying is that in the few one man games that I have done, and the in the one man games for which I train umpires, at the conclusion of play, if the umpire has had to come out make a call, the ball is now dead as he jogs back to the plate, without him calling time.

The reason is what I stated before, to keep the flow going and to discourage additional activites of the coaches and players that would delay putting the ball in play.

And IF, some numb nut decides create a play situation while the umpire is jobbing back to the plate, the umpire would put things back as they were, just as he would if time had been called.

The result is no different than if he had called time after every play, except the game will be ten miuntes shorter.

If you have a problem with working Frosh one man games in this manner, then don't.

[CO ump]

Originally Posted by GarthB

No, what I'm saying is that in the few one man games that I have done, and the in the one man games for which I train umpires, at the conclusion of play, if the umpire has had to come out make a call, the ball is now dead as he jogs back to the plate, without him calling time.

The reason is what I stated before, to keep the flow going and to discourage additional activites of the coaches and players that would delay putting the ball in play.

And IF, some numb nut decides create a play situation while the umpire is jobbing back to the plate, the umpire would put things back as they were, just as he would if time had been called.

The result is no different than if he had called time after every play, except the game will be ten miuntes shorter.

If you have a problem with working Frosh one man games in this manner, then don't.

First off this is a forum where mechanics, rules, rule interps and umpire stuff is discussed and hopefully some learning takes place. The next time I or some one else posts an incorrect mechanic or a bad rules interp you will be one of the first to correct it.
I'm sure many new and inexperienced umps are reading your posts, and so they should, you're probably one of the top 5 knowledgeable and experienced guys on the board, which is why I was surprised when you stated that turning your back on a live ball was ok.

I'm very confused over your explanation. The ball is either dead or it's live, there's no middle ground. If the ball is dead it must be put back in play.
If you teach that the ball is automatically dead when you turn your back so be it. But it is an improper mechanic, or lack of mechanic and no one but you knows the ball is dead.

And why in the world would a kid be a numb nut for creating a play during live ball action? I don't remember ever being taught to make sure the ump is watching before advancing, there's nothing in the rules that obligates the player to wait for the umpire during live ball action.
You would be the numb nut for not calling time.
I think you're teaching terrible mechanics and creating a real opportunity for a crap house for what? To maybe save 5 minutes.

Garth you may have the skills and presence on the field to handle the coach when you have to send a runner back or deny an out by the defense that was made while the ball was live and your back was turned. But you teach and have influence over many new and inexperienced umps who have not developed the same game management skills that you have and your endorsement and teaching of this terrible mechanic isn't helping them.

Teaching improper mechanics for the sake of getting off the field quicker isn't something I expected from you

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by CO ump

So, you disagree with the way we perform one-man mechanics when we are forced to do at a sub varsity level? I can live with that.

[CO ump]

Originally Posted by GarthB

So, you disagree with the way we perform one-man mechanics when we are forced to do at a sub varsity level? I can live with that.

Most umps doing sub varsity are on their way up the ladder not taking a temporary step down. Therefore, I think we agree, they need to be learning proper mechanics, not shortcuts to getting off the field 5 minutes quicker.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by CO ump

The ball is either dead or it's live, there's no middle ground. If the ball is dead it must be put back in play.

By definition only you are correct but not in actual practice.

If you watch MLB when b1 walks and the manager wants to make a pitching change, the manger is already on his way to the mound before TIME is called. It's called MLB protocol. There are also other instances as well.

When working SOLO I do my best to back peddle when I am near the "working area" making a call.

Keep the game moving.

Also, IMO you are missing the BIG picture It's a modified / JV or Frosh game. If we go by what you recommend you will be calling TIME on just about every play which adds as Garth said at the very minimum 10-15 minutes and in some instances more.

The coaches know you are working SOLO and if your back is turned while jogging back to the plate it is in effect TIME without calling it.

Also, one other thing to remember. You are not going to jog back to the plate until action is relaxed on the previous play. After action is relaxed, as Garth says if the coach now "wants to play games" when your back is turned, then you simply put things back.

If you want to call TIME so be it but that's your preference, all Garth and myself are pointing out is that there is another way it is not necessarily the wrong way.

When working SOLO TIME will be called enough. Sometimes we ourselves take an extra minute or 2 in between innings if we just got finished with a marathon and need that minute or 2 to catch our breaths and keep up with the liquids.

Pete Booth

[CO ump]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]

By definition only you are correct but not in actual practice.

If you watch MLB when b1 walks and the manager wants to make a pitching change, the manger is already on his way to the mound before TIME is called. It's called MLB protocol. There are also other instances as well.

yes but in each instance the ball is put back in play


[QUOTE=PeteBooth]

Also, IMO you are missing the BIG picture It's a modified / JV or Frosh game. If we go by what you recommend you will be calling TIME on just about every play which adds as Garth said at the very minimum 10-15 minutes and in some instances more.

I disagree. This is only an issue when there is a runner or runners on base. I can take an angle back to the plate and keep my eye on a single runner.
The only instance time needs to be called, if you don't turn your back on a single runner, is when there are multiple runners which is a small percentage of the time.

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]

The coaches know you are working SOLO and if your back is turned while jogging back to the plate it is in effect TIME without calling it.

So when we're solo the coaches are our friends and suddenly grow a brain and develop a sense of fairness. If that's the case all games should be solo




[QUOTE=PeteBooth]

If you want to call TIME so be it but that's your preference, all Garth and myself are pointing out is that there is another way it is not necessarily the wrong way.

If you want to say that when you turn your back the ball is dead that's fine, but then the ball has to be put back in play.
To leave the ball live, but not allow live ball action is wrong. To make the ball dead and not have a definitive time when the ball becomes live again can only lead to trouble.
And if the only reason you're not calling time is to get to the local watering hole quicker then IMO you're cheating the game.
I also have an issue with umps who don't seem to give their best efforts to underclass games. But that's another issue altogether

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]

When working SOLO TIME will be called enough.

Except for the issue at hand, why would time be called anymore than in a 2 or 3 man game?

Originally Posted by GarthB

No, what I'm saying is that in the few one man games that I have done, and the in the one man games for which I train umpires, at the conclusion of play, if the umpire has had to come out make a call, the ball is now dead as he jogs back to the plate, without him calling time.

The reason is what I stated before, to keep the flow going and to discourage additional activites of the coaches and players that would delay putting the ball in play.

And IF, some numb nut decides create a play situation while the umpire is jobbing back to the plate, the umpire would put things back as they were, just as he would if time had been called.

The result is no different than if he had called time after every play, except the game will be ten miuntes shorter.

If you have a problem with working Frosh one man games in this manner, then don't.

Ninety percent of the games I've worked in the last two years alone have been solo, by choice. I've never turned my back on a live ball. Either time has been called or I back pedal to home. Does it take more time, certainly; is it a pain in the a$$, you bet. I'd rather take an extra 20 - 30 seconds than to place myself in a vulnerable spot and have to explain to a coach, I didn't see it because I wasn't watching. Sorry, I can't agree with your point of view. If you are getting paid to call a game solo, you owe every player, coach and spectator the same courtesy of being attentive at all times as much as you would if you were doing two, three, or four man.