2nd Base tagged with glove while hole ball in hand

[UmpJM]

Al,

The PU was right.

For the tag of the base to be legal, the fielder must have "secure possession" of the ball while touching the base.

I believe it is FED that has a case play that supports the position that it is possible for the fielder to have "secure possession", even though a portion of the ball may also be touching the ground.

Now if I'm umpiring the game, I damn sure am going to make him "lift it clean" before I rule on the play. If he does, the runner is out. If he doesn't, the runner is safe.

JM

[DG]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Now if I'm umpiring the game, I damn sure am going to make him "lift it clean" before I rule on the play. If he does, the runner is out. If he doesn't, the runner is safe.

JM

Agreed, but, the timing on the out is the possesion, not the lift. I assume you meant the lift is merely to prove it is securely held. This ain't football, the ball can be in contact with the ground AND securely held.

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Al,

The PU was right.

For the tag of the base to be legal, the fielder must have "secure possession" of the ball while touching the base.

I believe it is FED that has a case play that supports the position that it is possible for the fielder to have "secure possession", even though a portion of the ball may also be touching the ground.

Now if I'm umpiring the game, I damn sure am going to make him "lift it clean" before I rule on the play. If he does, the runner is out. If he doesn't, the runner is safe.

JM

On a sit like that, I will be more likely to call the play safe. The words "secure possession" is very open ended. If he picks up the ball, I KNOW he has secure possession; if he doesn't, then I have to make an assumption. I find it difficult to make an OUT call on an assumption that the fielder has "secure possession". My first umpire teacher once said - if you can't see it you can't call it. The same applies here. If his hand is rolled to the side and I can tell he has it securely, I'll make the out call.

[Al]

Originally Posted by BigGuy

On a sit like that, I will be more likely to call the play safe. The words "secure possession" is very open ended. If he picks up the ball, I KNOW he has secure possession; if he doesn't, then I have to make an assumption. I find it difficult to make an OUT call on an assumption that the fielder has "secure possession". My first umpire teacher once said - if you can't see it you can't call it. The same applies here. If his hand is rolled to the side and I can tell he has it securely, I'll make the out call.

Thanks guys,

Before he lifted the ball off the ground I could easily see he had secure possession of the ball just by the way his fingers were gripping it. The funny part of the play was the coach had a broken English accent (Polish) and instead of saying the ball was on the ground he said: "Ump the ball was on the floor".. ...Fun at the ole' ball park. ...Al

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by BigGuy

On a sit like that, I will be more likely to call the play safe. The words "secure possession" is very open ended. If he picks up the ball, I KNOW he has secure possession; if he doesn't, then I have to make an assumption. I find it difficult to make an OUT call on an assumption that the fielder has "secure possession". My first umpire teacher once said - if you can't see it you can't call it. The same applies here. If his hand is rolled to the side and I can tell he has it securely, I'll make the out call.

BigGuy,

As DG suggests above, at the time the runner touches the base (which is the point in time that matters), you make an initial/provisional judgement as to whether or not the fielder has (had) secure possession of the ball while touching the base. If he clearly did not (in your judgment), you can go ahead and rule safe.

If it appears he did, but you are not 100% certain that the ground is not providing some essential support which only makes it APPEAR that he has secure possession, you tell him to lift it. If he does so in a manner that suggests he had secure possession, you bang the out. If he does so otherwise, you indicate safe.

Sometimes, you just got to umpire.

JM