NFHS balk rule revisted

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I think that's generally true. Having taught officiating classes, though, it's surprisingly easy to mis-state something, or to give the right answer to the wrong question, etc.

Thanks

[tcarilli]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Garth alluded to Oregon's State Rules Interpretor who said to a group of 100 umpires that an NFHS pitcher could try a pick off from THE WIND UP position without first disengaging.

Tim,

Boy am I glad I live in a place with more understanding than that! Unfortunately, the best rules guys are not always the guys in charge of the interpreting and presenting for lots of reasons not related to knowledge. In economics we say that there are two ways to have a comparative advantage at X (rules interpretation) you can either be better than any one else at X or everybody else is better than you at everything but X.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Garth alluded to Oregon's State Rules Interpretor who said to a group of 100 umpires that an NFHS pitcher could try a pick off from THE WIND UP position without first disengaging.

We see that "instructors" and "SRIs" are sometimes the one's that need teaching.

Regards,

At first I would think that the SRI just made a "slip o' the tounge" but what it me square in the back of the head was the chilling question "Did anyone of the attending umpires even question the SRI on this?"

[Tim C]

Yes, a group of umpires lead by Garth and his son Matt took the SRI to task. The SRI then repeated his claim and stood by it until someone brought in a rule book to assist the SRI in seeing his incorrect assumption.

In Oregon we are just starting a system to govern all SRIs for all sports.

Previous to this year the SRIs were basically named to their positions for life and really had no oversight.

Starting in 2009 all SRIs will:

1) Be named to a term at the position (probably three years),

2) Will be evaluated by the Sport Specific Committee that they represent,

3) Have specific requirements to process to keep there positions.

Oregon is set up this way:

A. The Oregon School Activities Association governs all competitive sport.

B. The Oregon Athletic Officials Association governs all officials in all sports.

C. The State Specific Sports Committees (I am on the Baseball Umpire Committee) selects the direction and specific programs for all officials. It is this committee that will be the oversight committee for the State Rules Interpreters.

What we have currently in Oregon is that the OSAA wants two or three SRIs to step down but are afraid that by making a set system that the ONE key SRI (that is well respected nationally) could also fall out of his position.

We would hope that all SRIs would be "experts" on the rules of the game that they are responsible . . . sadly we have found that is far from the norm.

Since I am in my third year as the Portland Baseball Umpires Association Vice President of Rules I agree with Bob Jenkins. Sometimes things come out of my mouth that even surprise me.

Regards,

[PeteBooth]

Ozzy the point is:

We did not receive the ENTIRE info. We were not there and do not know the EXACT question asked etc.

That's the main problem with many an OP. We do not receive all the INFO and are left to ASSUME (We know that can be dangerous)

Therefore it's difficult to comment on EXACTLY what took place. Also, as TEE says sometimes we all misunderstand a question and something slips out etc.
We had a simple OP with very limited information.

"On the surface" it appears that the SRI doesn't know his stuff or the umpires in attendence didn't ask a follow-up question etc. but we do not have all the facts.

Pete Booth

[MadCityRef]

Tim,
Does OAOA also assign the playoffs?
If only other states would have the guts to let refs govern themselves.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Yes, a group of umpires lead by Garth and his son Matt took the SRI to task.

A couple of images came to my mind when reading this:

1.) Pitchforks and lit torches with a battering ram knocking down the church door and Quasimodo asking for, "Sanctuary!"

2.) A father and son team of spider monkeys picking more nits knowing a film crew from National Geographic is following them.....

[GarthB]

Quite the imagination, Paul.

It was neither. The Oregon SRI was describing what a pitcher could do from the rubber under NFHS as he was leading a small group of clinic attendees at a Tom Hiler clinic. He recited the pro rules instead.

Matt, an friend from Medford, and I looked at each other as if to question if we heard him correctly. The exchange began and remained politely. We asked him if, since what he quoted was the pro rule, was he sure that was also the FED rule. The gentleman works under BR, FED and NCAA and we thought perhaps he was just suffering a momentary brain fart.

However, he responded by reciting the pro rule again and said that he had it right. Matt responded with, "Excuse me, but I thought in FED a pitcher in the windup position had to step off the rubber before throwing to first." The SRI again repeated his assertion. The matter was dropped at that point.

Ever since, we have, good naturedly, ribbed Tee about his SRI.

But, no one's perfect. Some of the best SRIs across the country have thought they were correct about a FED interpretation only to find out that Indianapolis disgareed. I remember when FED ruled that players could not toss a glove with the ball lodged in it that several highly regarded SRI's were surprised.

Edited to add:

Since that incident, Oregon, with much prodding from Tee, has, in a number of ways, become the vanguard in sport officiating. The changes in mechanics, enhanced training and the raising of expectations Oregon has instituted has influenced many in Washington as well.

[Tim C]

Does OAOA also assign the playoffs?

What a great question:

This is what is happening in Oregon:

1) By 2010 ANY umpire in the State of Oregon that wants to work ANY level of ANY school size must be OOCEP certified. Currently the only way to do this is to take our certified Clinic for three umpire crews.

2) The three umpire crew clinics were begun last year as we did three separate locations in the state. We have two more scheduled for this year and we plan three more next season. This will leave us with a "super clinic" to be held in March of 2010 and that will complete the certification for playoff umpires.

3) If any region in the state does not have enough "certified" umpires the OSAA will send umpires from other regions to work the playoff games and will charge the local association the added costs for those officials.

4) Currently in Oregon all playoff umpires come from the association that umpires the home team’s games during the regular season. This is true up to and including the state semi-finals.

5) The state finals (a two day operation with two games on Friday and three games on Saturday) currently selects umpires that are nominated by local associations. As example since my group (the PBUA) work more schools that any other group in the state we get four "spots" out of the 15 game day umpires. Also since we work over 2/3 of the largest schools (by attendance) we will always have 2 of the 3 umpires in the game for the 6A championship.

6) In the future the OAOA will be responsible to have evaluators move around the state to review the potential umpires that are being named by their local group. The intent is to eventually make sure that the 15 umpires working the finals are the very best umpires that are available. Please note: there are rules being developed to insure that a number of umpires can qualify to work the finals -- we are working on "how many years" must an umpire sit out before returning to the state championship games.

This is way too long of an answer but the OAOA (Oregon Athletic Officials Association) State Baseball Umpire Committee has been in place for two years. In that time we have written a definition of Malicious Contact, have designed an official state line-up card (which has also been used by the softball groups in our state), have developed a criteria for a local association to host a three umpire crew clinic, have written the workbook and handouts and certified the trainers for the three umpire clinic, have taught three clinics AND we have written the definitive manual (bible) for how to train Two Umpire Crews for every umpire in the state.

We have just begun to CHANGE the way high school games are umpired in this state.

Regards,

Tim Christensen

Secretary
Oregon Athletic Officials Association
State Baseball Umpire Committee

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Quite the imagination, Paul.

It was neither. The Oregon SRI was describing what a pitcher could do from the rubber under NFHS as he was leading a small group of clinic attendees at a Tom Hiler clinic. He recited the pro rules instead.

Matt, an friend from Medford, and I looked at each other as if to question if we heard him correctly. The exchange began and remained politely. We asked him if, since what he quoted was the pro rule, was he sure that was also the FED rule. The gentleman works under BR, FED and NCAA and we thought perhaps he was just suffering a momentary brain fart.

However, he responded by reciting the pro rule again and said that he had it right. Matt responded with, "Excuse me, but I thought in FED a pitcher in the windup position had to step off the rubber before throwing to first." The SRI again repeated his assertion. The matter was dropped at that point.

Ever since, we have, good naturedly, ribbed Tee about his SRI.

But, no one's perfect. Some of the best SRIs across the country have thought they were correct about a FED interpretation only to find out that Indianapolis disgareed. I remember when FED ruled that players could not toss a glove with the ball lodged in it that several highly regarded SRI's were surprised.

Edited to add:

Since that incident, Oregon, with much prodding from Tee, has, in a number of ways, become the vanguard in sport officiating. The changes in mechanics, enhanced training and the raising of expectations Oregon has instituted has influenced many in Washington as well.

Garthington,

It was just a joke and Tee did say your son, Matt. We meet in an old high school auditorium and I often have to ask myself if I just heard what I thought I heard. I'm in the vast minority, which is also a vast minority that attend, of people that will ask a question in a meeting. Those that do come usually socialize or watch the clock. Nothing wrong with getting it right. FED is almost the anti-OBR when it comes to rules, so I understand the confusion. I don't see anything wrong with wanting to do things better and be better at what you do. Everybody wins in the long run.

Experience is often a mistake you won't make a second time.

Hope the weather clears up soon, your knee gets better and you will have something to do with your spare time.