ncaa test question

[newump]

I've got conflicting answers to the following question. NCAA rules. The handout at the NCAA clinic indicates that B is the correct answer, yet the rule reference 1.16.d indicates that "D" is the correct answer. I also seem to recall this being addressed at the clinic and D was the response given by Dave Yeast. Thoughts...

Question:
During the course of a game, the umpiring crew is made aware that a team is using a "red-shirt" player to warm-up pitchers in the bullpen.

Answer:

A. If this person is dressed in a game uniform, his participation as a "bullpen catcher" is permitted.
B. The UIC will require this individual to immediately exit the bullpen and/or the dugout.
C. The UIC will forfeit the game because of the "ineligible player."
D. This is a Conference issue and this rule violation must be reported immediately after the game to the Conference office. The player is allowed to remain in the dugout for the remainder of the game.

[bob jenkins]

With the caveat that I haven't been to the clinic yet, and it's been a long time (5 months or so) since I've done any rules study, the answer *might* depend on the level / conference.

The rules allow only "players in uniform", coaches, bat bouys, etc. in the dugout / bullpen. In some levels / leagues, the UIC is given a roster at / before the first game. This defines "players." So, in this instance, B might be the correct answer.

In other cases, the umpires don't know anything about the rosters. In this instance, D might be the correct answer.

[SAump]

How is the umpire suppose to keep up with the status of each redshirt during the course of a season?

Does the coach have to declare a change in a player's pre-season status before each and every game of a season?

If the coach gave the guy a game uniform, then he is considered part of the team. If he plays and it is later determined that he is no longer a redshirt freshman, for various reasons, I've got nothing. If this is a league issue, of course, I will accept any protest lodged by the opponents, and allow the league to penalize the event. Answer D seems very plausible.

I would like to go with choice A, as if I were an NCAA umpire, because it is more politically correct. FWIW, MLB allows "bullpen catchers" not listed on the roster to remain in the bullpen. Of cousre, I assume this MLB allowance will apply to an NCAA game. If not D or A, then I would enforce B, after speaking with the coach, and have him acknowledge the mistake and remove the "fan" from the field.

FWIW, this decision C, the UIC will forfeit the game because of the "ineligible player," seems politically incorrect because of conference standings, travel, etc. I would never cancel a game for this reason. Play the game. Straighten it out later.

D is best option {League issue}, A or B tie {to allow or not to allow by specific NCAA rule}, and never C {worst case points back to D}.
However, if it were not a League issue, then I choose A over B without any specific NCAA rule addressing redshirt elgibility available.

[johnnyg08]

I wouldn't micromanage that issue...let the team who's ratting out the other team be the bad guy...not sure if it's right, but I'm choosing D

[DG]

1.16.d reads "All loose equipment (e.g., bats, gloves chairs, etc.) must be kept in the dugout or in a clearly marked dead-ball area."

I am not sure the answer but I was under impression if you were red shirting you could participate in practice and be in uniform, but if you play you lose your redshirt. I have seen cases in football where a redshirt runnning back is in uniform and on the sideline and is brought in late in the year due to injuries to starters. Based on this I don't know why he couldn't warm up a pitcher if he is uniform, since he is in uniform, but I expect this is a conference issue.

[tcarilli]

Here's the rule

1-16-c. During a game, no one except eligible players in uniform, coaches,
managers, athletic trainers, physicians, scorekeepers and bat persons shall
occupy a team’s dugout or bullpen.
A.R.—Any violation of this rule should be brought to the umpire's attention, and should be reported to the conference or proper disciplinary authority.

Therefore the answer is b and there is no conflict. The first part of d "this a conference issue" is incorrect. This is a general rules issue not a specific conference issue. The approved rulings is in addition to removing him from the bench/dugout. This violation is going to be something that will have to be brought to the attention of the umpire; he isn't going to verify the status for everyone on the bench.

Notice the rule says "eligible players in uniform;" a red-shirt freshman is not an eligible player, therefore he may not be on the bench or in the bull pen.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by tcarilli

A.R.—Any violation of this rule should be brought to the umpire's attention, and should be reported to the conference or proper disciplinary authority.

Thanks. the AR is new this year, and I haven't seen the new books yet.

[ggk]

i guess the referee mag sponsored ncaa handout has the wrong answer. rule book clearly indicates D

[SAump]

Do not disturb! I have a game to attend. Answer choice A and the 2nd half of D seem "less restrictive" and most appropriate for actions described in the OP. The other choices raise more questions than they could possibly answer.

What am I suppose to say, "Some clown came up to me and stated that player B is ineligible coach. Is he right?" I don't like the idea of an ineligible player wearing a game uniform. But I don't want him mingling in the crowd either, unless he has a change of clothes. So I could care less who catches what outside the ballfield.

College teams carry a lot of players. It is not uncommon for non-participating pitchers to throw some bullpen behind the dugout or in a tunnel while the first game of a DH is being played. The NCAA umpire crew should have more important things to worry about than bullpen activity. From where I stand on the matter, I can't see over or through the fence. Go tell the scorekeeper upstairs.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by ggk

rule book clearly indicates D

Huh? Did you read 1=16=c?

The rule book clearly indicates B. Read tcarilli's post above for an excellent explanation.

[SAump]

The rulebook states rule 1-16-c is an "altered bullpen rule to agree with NCAA Championship policies." The rulebook clearly indicates Rule 1-16 is an "administrative rule that may be altered by mutual consent of the competing institutions."

The issues raised between B and D seem unresolved in this thread. As far as redshirt players being inelgible for dugout duties, I have never heard of such a restriction. I have seen more than one redshirt pitcher warm the bench. I have also seen a number of freshman who had no shot at playing on the "varsity squad" ride the pine for 2 years or more. Who carries the coach's fungo, holds the sunflower seeds, sits by the igloo, participates in cage work, and more on gameday? I never thought it meant a free ride to the games. I want them to earn that scholarship. Choice A is allowed in MLB and I have no evidence of a BRD between NCAA and MLB here. Of course that doesn't mean there isn't one if it is being discussed among NCAA umpires at this time.

Choice B seems reserved for the spirit of the rule which eliminates fellow students, girlfriends, family members, alumni, and former players from the dugout, just as rules do not allow players to mingle in the crowd, or talk to spectators during the game. Lastings Milledge, of the NY Mets, after he hit his 1st MLB home run, comes to mind. Some people liked the enthusiasm of youth on display while others turned a cold shoulder to the sideshow. It wouldn't surprise me, if this literal interpretation made it through the rules committee. "Whoo Hoo, look what I accomplished!"

[socalblue1]

Per the 2008 rule book "D" is the correct answer to the test question.

As SAUmp stated, rule 1-16-c is an "altered bullpen rule to agree with NCAA Championship policies." The rulebook clearly indicates Rule 1-16 is an "administrative rule that may be altered by mutual consent of the competing institutions."

I suspect that most conferences will address this (Either permit or not). The problem will come during non-conference games when there are conflicting policies. One more thing to deal with during the pre-game conference.

[Publius]

Originally Posted by tcarilli

Here's the rule

1-16-c. During a game, no one except eligible players in uniform, coaches,
managers, athletic trainers, physicians, scorekeepers and bat persons shall
occupy a team’s dugout or bullpen.
A.R.—Any violation of this rule should be brought to the umpire's attention, and should be reported to the conference or proper disciplinary authority.

Therefore the answer is b and there is no conflict. The first part of d "this a conference issue" is incorrect. This is a general rules issue not a specific conference issue. The approved rulings is in addition to removing him from the bench/dugout. This violation is going to be something that will have to be brought to the attention of the umpire; he isn't going to verify the status for everyone on the bench.

Notice the rule says "eligible players in uniform;" a red-shirt freshman is not an eligible player, therefore he may not be on the bench or in the bull pen.

Not debating the correct answer; it's clearly "b"--by rule, despite those who have never heard of it. Neither had I, until this year.

But isn't "d" incorrect due to its second sentence, not the first? It IS a conference issue (though not solely) that should be reported to the conference office after the game. The incorrect part is that the player should be allowed to remain in the dugout.

[tcarilli]

Originally Posted by socalblue1

Per the 2008 rule book "D" is the correct answer to the test question.

As SAUmp stated, rule 1-16-c is an "altered bullpen rule to agree with NCAA Championship policies." The rulebook clearly indicates Rule 1-16 is an "administrative rule that may be altered by mutual consent of the competing institutions."

I suspect that most conferences will address this (Either permit or not). The problem will come during non-conference games when there are conflicting policies. One more thing to deal with during the pre-game conference.

Wow, now we find ourselves sitting on the horns of a dilemma. Given SAUmp's redirecting us (appropriately so) to the other parts of the rule book where 1-16 is mentioned; it seems to indicate answer d is correct; while the NCAA rules bulleting which indicates b is, in fact, true (also logically so).

How is a girl to choose?

[SAump]

May I have this dance?

Red Shirting

Red shirting is not an official NCAA term, but the term is used when a student-athlete does not participate in any competition during a particular academic year (i.e., neither in the championship nor the non-championship segment of the playing season). A student-athlete may be red-shirted at any point in his/her athletic career. A "medical red shirt" is not an official NCAA term either, but the term is used when a student-athlete is injured after participating in a limited amount of competition during a particular academic year and then qualifies for a Medical Hardship Waiver. More detailed information regarding Medical Hardship Waivers is included below.

Source: http://gobearcats.cstv.com/complianc...gibilitys.html

Define elgibility.

Use of status
While the redshirt status may be conferred by a coach at the beginning of the year, it is not confirmed until the end of the season, and more specifically, it does not rule a player ineligible in advance to participate in the season. If a player shows great talent, or there are injuries on the team, the coach may remove the redshirt status and allow the player to participate in competition for the remainder of the year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshirt_freshman

That's elgible.