Overruling ?

[_Bruno_]

lets say we have detached gear on a batted ball. BU makes the call, but sends BR and each runner only 2 bases beyond their TOE(vent) base. the PU tells the BU that he made the wrong base awards, but the BU is sure, that he got it right.

do you overrule your partner, or whats the proper way to correct (or not correct) your partner (if he still thinks, he's right) ?

[AAUA96]

I just went to the NCAA meeting in Philadelphia last weekend. A similar situation was discussed (disagreement among partners about a rule). Mr. Yeast said, and I agree (like that matters), do not have a rule based protest in your game - take the time to get it right - consult a rule book if you have to (you are suppose to have one at the site - maybe in your car (for canadaump6 - in the bag hanging under the seat of your bike)).

At some levels of baseball, losing a protest will cause irreparable damage to your career.

Walt

[_Bruno_]

thats what i thought, but my mates said something like "he made the call, his call stands).
i told them, its not about a judgement call, its about wrong ruling. they said that it doesnt matter. its his call, and if he does not believe, its still his call .

[UMP25]

If it's a ruling as opposed to judgment call, it should be corrected, for the former can lead to a protest if noticed; the latter cannot.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by _Bruno_

thats what i thought, but my mates said something like "he made the call, his call stands).
i told them, its not about a judgement call, its about wrong ruling. they said that it doesnt matter. its his call, and if he does not believe, its still his call .

What if your partner said that each team gets four outs and a batter has to have five balls until he's awarded a base-on-balls?

It's a rule violation and it must be resolved between the two of you before the game continues.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Matt]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

What if your partner said that each team gets four outs and a batter has to have five balls until he's awarded a base-on-balls?

It's a rule violation and it must be resolved between the two of you before the game continues.

Agreed. What would happen if you don't correct your partner, and the exact same rule comes into play later, except on your call? Do you call the rule as he did, or as you know it?

[_Bruno_]

i should mention, that we do not have crew-chiefs or someting like this. both umpires have exacly the the "power".

[tiger49]

Originally Posted by AAUA96

(for canada - in the bag hanging under the seat of your bike)).

Walt

Nah we have a neat little cubicle called an Umpire's changeroom.

[Cub42]

There will be times when someone gets their feelings hurt. Take the time to talk to your partner and as stated earlier, even consult the book. You NEVER want to put yourself in a situation to lose a protest. In Pro ball, that is the ticket right out the door when you lose a protest

[DG]

I had something similar this summer in a state 15-17 tournament. I was U3, U2 made a call after a play that awarded a runner home, from 3b. U1 and U2 had a brief discussion while I stayed in a deep D position, fully expecting they would correct the problem, return the runner and then I would move to normal D position. But they separated with no fix, U1 said something to the defensive manager and went back behind the plate, and was getting ready to start play. I stopped him from putting the ball in play and huddled up with them both to explain why the awarded runner should be on 3b, not sent home. After a minute or so discussing I convinced them both and we put the runner back on 3b. Then U1 explained the change to the offensive manager.

We did not need a rule book, we just needed a good long discussion.

[_Bruno_]

Originally Posted by DG

I had something similar this summer in a state 15-17 tournament. I was U3, U2 made a call after a play that awarded a runner home, from 3b. U1 and U2 had a brief discussion while I stayed in a deep D position, fully expecting they would correct the problem, return the runner and then I would move to normal D position. But they separated with no fix, U1 said something to the defensive manager and went back behind the plate, and was getting ready to start play. I stopped him from putting the ball in play and huddled up with them both to explain why the awarded runner should be on 3b, not sent home. After a minute or so discussing I convinced them both and we put the runner back on 3b. Then U1 explained the change to the offensive manager.

We did not need a rule book, we just needed a good long discussion.

that would be the best way :-)
but in my case, both umpires had different ways to rule, even after they discussed it. so, the rulebook might be the best way to get the call right :-)

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by AAUA96

I just went to the NCAA meeting in Philadelphia last weekend. A similar situation was discussed (disagreement among partners about a rule). Mr. Yeast said, and I agree (like that matters), do not have a rule base protest in your game - take the time to get it right - consult a rule book if you have to (you are suppose to have one at the site - maybe in your car (for canada - in the bag hanging under the seat of your bike)).

At some levels of baseball, losing a protest will cause irreparable damage to your career.

Walt

I agree. And, I've gone to the book (in the dugout) to resolve some screwy NCAA DH play (is there any other kind in NCAA?)

That said, if the umpires still can't agree, someone is going to have to take charge and take responsibility. IT's just as likely in the OP that one umpire awards 3 bases and the other steps in to try to "overrule." That's one of the jobs of the crew chief.

Originally Posted by DG

Don't be upset with a coach for bringing one on the field if you are willing to go to the parking lot to get one.

There's a difference between a coach bringing a book on the field without beign asked, and a coach producing one upon request (or the coach asking permission and then showing the rule to the umpire).

[DG]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

There's a difference between a coach bringing a book on the field without being asked, and a coach producing one upon request (or the coach asking permission and then showing the rule to the umpire).

I agree. But I have never asked a coach to bring one out and have never gone to my car to get one. I have had cases where the coach did not believe me, but never had one that felt so strongly to protest.

With that being said I can recall come cases where I blew a rule and sometimes realize it several pitches too late. But I don't remember too many cases where the coach did not agree with me, that I was wrong. And I always double check that when I get home.

[TxUmp]

I have had only one case in my 35 year umpiring career where a coach asked me to check the rule book.

Me: Coach, I don't need to check the rule book. I know the rules! I don't bring a rule book on the field with me.

He: I've got one in the dugout. Will you check it?

Me: I'm sure I got the rule right, but if you need the rule book, bring it out.

He: (After going back to the dugout) Here is the book. Show me the rule.

Me: (Opening the book to the exact page on the first try): Here is the rule. (I read it to him - in case he can't read). Now let's play ball.

To be absolutely fair to him, the ruling did depend on how the actual rule was interpreted. Fed Rule 7-3-5 - "A batter shall not . . . interfere with the catcher's fielding or throwing by . . . a) leaning over home plate.

He was coaching his players to lean over so that their entire upper body was over the plate, well into the strike zone.

He later got an intrepretation from the state rules interpreter that so long as the batter's feet were in the batter's box, the tactic was legal.

I took myself off any of that team's games, but as fate would have it I wound up calling a tournament in which that team reached the finals. I was aware of his favorable ruling, so we started the game with his players leaning over the plate. The opposing pitcher was a fireballer, who hit several batters (some of which were on called strikes). After having enough of this, I called the coach out for a conference. I told him that I was aware of his favorable ruling, but we had a safety situation and I was taking advantage of the fact that protests are not allowed in Texas. MY ruling was that he would not have his players lean out over the plate for the rest of the game. His choices were to go back to the dugout and continue with my interpretation of the rule, get ejected, or forfeit the game. He chose the first option. The opposing pitcher threw a no-hitter, and his (small) school won the tournament over the opposing (large) school.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by TxUmp

I have had only one case in my 35 year umpiring career where a coach asked me to check the rule book.

Me: Coach, I don't need to check the rule book. I know the rules! I don't bring a rule book on the field with me.

He: I've got one in the dugout. Will you check it?

Me: I'm sure I got the rule right, but if you need the rule book, bring it out.

He: (After going back to the dugout) Here is the book. Show me the rule.

Me: (Opening the book to the exact page on the first try): Here is the rule. (I read it to him - in case he can't read). Now let's play ball.

Impressive!

I, personally, wouldn't have handled it that way - mostly because I would risk embarrassing myself by fumbling through the rulebook trying to find a rule that I know is there but simply can't put my finger on it at the moment. I think we've all been there.

"Where in the hell is that rule!?"

I remember trying to find the rule that stated that a batter was automatically out if they crossed over into the other batter's box while the pitcher was ready to pitch. I knew it was there and, in my haste, for the life of me, I couldn't find it.

Although I'm not one of those guys that would never allow a rulebook on the field, I certainly wouldn't allow a coach to make me do the research.

If the coach is complaining about a ruling and is so confident that he's right to the extent that he is willing to show me in a rulebook - I would make him do the research and the game would continue in the meantime, unless, of course, he wants to protest at that moment; in which case I will ...

1.) Consult with my partner. If he disagrees with my call, together we will look through the rulebook and resolve it.

2.) Even if my partner agrees with my call, if I'm not 100% sure, I will probably still get out the rulebook - just to make sure.

3.) If my partner agrees with my call, and I'm confident in my ruling, without reference to the rulebook, I will handle the administrative tasks associated with a protested game and move on.

Depending on the environment surrounding the game (friendly or hostile), I may handle things a bit differently. If there is a question about a call and the game is one of those "friendly" ones where nothing is at stake and nobody is getting too wound tight ... where it is more a matter of curiosity than confrontation ... I may get out the rulebook as a matter of instruction to the coach.

But in a hostile environment, I'm not so sure I'd put myself on center stage, flipping through the rulebook, while the coach defiantly stands by with his hands on his hips. "Show me!"

I'd make him protest the game and make his wallet a little thinner for the challenge. I don't know about your areas, but around here, all protests have a fee associated with them. If you lose the protest, you lose the money. If the protest is upheld, your money is refunded.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN