Mitchell Report?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by SAump

How can you confuse me for being from Butswanee.

Or Nuevo Laredo. Or Dien Bien Phu.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

But in reality, this whole report is a farce. The "accused" cannot defend themselves nor can they challenge their "accuser". I tend to agree with the thinking of Rush Limbaugh on this in that Baseball cannot and will not strip any awards. What's done is done. The future is what has to be changed.

The same Rush Limbaugh that accuses Bill Clinton, Al Gore, Hillary Clinton and anybody else in the Democratic Party for whatever he can so he will have a listener audience. Or, the same Rush Limbaugh that got busted for illegal possession of prescription painkillers for which he was downing about 80 per day. Limbaugh is farce personified.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Killing dogs for sport and hunting wild animals are like comparing apples and automobiles. They are not even remotely similar.

That might be true in your value system, but it is not much different in my value system. Just like all Christians have different beliefs, many animal lovers do to.

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Dogs: Domesticated animals, family pets, man's best friend, etc. Not meant to be killed for not performing up to dog fighting standards.

Well in some cultures Dogs would be food. And in other countries or cultures, you cannot kill any animal even if it is a rat. We all do not see dog fighting in the same light. Of course I am not a fan of this, but I was not outraged either. And considering some people get less time or consideration for harming human beings (Leonard Little of the Rams killed a woman and got less time than Vick has and he is still playing football and I do not see the outrage over that fact)

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Hunted animals: Wild animals, not normally associated as pets, license required to hunt them, hunted for sport for centuries, used as food to feed the hunters' family (except trophy hunting, which is just wrong).

Also depending one what animal is involved, you cannot hunt all wild animals either. That is fine if there are different standards, but I find that a little hypocritical based on my values.

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

If what Vick did was not wrong, why are there laws against it and why is everyone sickened by it? We don't prosecute hunters because they perform a service by thinning out the overpopulated herd. Killing dogs is just cruel.

What is illegal and what is morally wrong are too different things. It is illegal to have possession of drugs and just having possession can send you to jail more than murder or sexually violating children. That just shows from my point of view that our values are out of whack.

Now I am not asking you to agree with my point of view or really trying to debate the issue any further. I just wanted to illustrate how different people with different backgrounds view the same events very differently. And just like you and I might agree on what is right or wrong as it relates to the Mitchell Report, we disagree big time on the Vick situation and dog fighting. And I am a person that owns a dog (or did before I moved out of my parent’s house). And I love dogs and could never see myself doing what Vick did. I was not outraged to the point I would not have bought his jersey or watched his games. I just value human beings more than I do animals and if it is an animal or a human being, I am taking sides with the human being. I tend to get outraged over other things and if Vick got no prison time I would not have cared.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by GarthB

I loved his defense that it was a "cultural thing." I'm still trying to figure out to which culture he was referring.

Dog fighting is largely a southern and rural activity. Just like hunting deer is a rural Midwestern cultural activity. I live in the Chicago area now, but I do not know many people in this metropolitan area that openly talk about going hunting. It is not in the culture of this area. Just like cock fighting is something you see in rural areas in the south you would not likely see this activity in California for example.

I have an officiating friend that goes hunting all the time and he talks all the time about when they went out hunting. I worked a game with him recently and we took a detour to a relative's house so he could get a gift for his hunting. While I was sitting there all the hunting talk was Greek to me, but it was something he grew up doing and many folks in that part (where I grew up) do often. This not something widely talked about in the area I currently live.

Peace

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Dog fighting is largely a southern and rural activity. Just like hunting deer is a rural Midwestern cultural activity.

Just because an activity takes place in a particular part of the country does not mean it is a "cultural thing."

Child molesting occurs in Chicago. In fact, each year there are more arrests for child molesting in Cook county than there are arrests for dog fighting in all of the state of Virginia. Is it a cultural thing? Probably not.

[UmpJM]

Jeff & Garth,

Hey, have you guys seen the new Michael Vick chew toy for dogs?

I can only say I wish I'd thought of it first.

http://www.vickdogchewtoy.com/

Have a great holiday.

John

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Just because an activity takes place in a particular part of the country does not mean it is a "cultural thing."

All the word "culture" means is the beliefs, customs, practices, and social behavior of a particular nation or people. And just like certain people listen to certain music and participate in certain activities and eat certain foods, people that get involved in things like hunting and dog fighting are doing so based on some cultural behaviors. Also I do not recall anyone from the Vick camp ever saying anything about this as a cultural issue. I think that was something some media people tried to use in as an explanation.

Originally Posted by GarthB

Child molesting occurs in Chicago. In fact, each year there are more arrests for child molesting in Cook county than there are arrests for dog fighting in all of the state of Virginia. Is it a cultural thing? Probably not.

There are probably more arrests in Cook County because there are more people in that area and it is a crime that the authorities care about. I do not see a major push to cut down on dog fighting as they do on child molestation. I do not see shows on TV called, "To catch a dog fighter."

Peace

[PeteBooth]

[

QUOTE=LakeErieUmp]The Mitchell Report is out (mlb.com). Not surprisingly, no current or former MLB umpires.

[/QUOTE]

IMO, if there is a so called "lesson" it is this.

Whenever BIG money is involved there will be cheating and not just in baseball.

The investigation was a way for Bud to try and save "face' so that his legacy would not be remebered as the Steroid " Commissioner. Also, MLB could not make it look like a "witch hunt" against Bonds so they had to find other players.

The Problem is that the list isn't complete and the information supplied was from individuals staring a prison term "in the face" They received immunity for drug trafficing.

Then there is the NCAA where they receive Mega Bucks from the networks. Do you think these kids go to class. Just about every year we hear about recruiting violations. The Presdients / AD's do not care at all especially when they receiving huge money from the BCS bowls.

Corporate America is just as corrupt as sports. En RON / World Com come to mind.

Then there is sports betting and casino gambling.

As far as baseball trying to "hold on to the sanctity of their records" IMO even before Steroids it "went out the window"

The ball parks were smaller. Night baseball replacing day baseball, the institutuion of the DH, and IMO, a HUGE change was the lowering of the pitching mound.

It's all about the money. MLB knew there was a problem back in the early 90's and did nothing about it. If the owners could field a team of androids and they drew 3.5 - 4 million people they couldn't care less.

IMO, the Fans do not care either. This is more of a media "thing" because the Fans are going to MLB parks in groves.

There will always be cheaters when BIG money is involved. Instead of "wasting" money and conducting investigations simply put in Stiff penalties that is all you can do.

Pete Booth

[Richard_Siegel]

Weekly commentary by CBS Evening News chief Washington correspondent and Face the Nation host Bob Schieffer.

---

When I was a kid, all I wanted to be was a ballplayer.

We didn't have coaches back then until we got to high school. We learned the game from each other and from copying the major leaguers. We copied everything from their swings to the way they walked.

Because they chewed tobacco, I chewed. It was part of the game.

My dream to be a ballplayer ended but it left me with a heavy addiction to nicotine.

Years ago, I finally beat it, but it was probably the reason I have a disease called ulcerative colitis, and almost certainly the cause for my bladder cancer decades later.

I still take drugs to control the colitis. Surgery got the cancer.

But I can only thank the stars there were no steroids in my younger days.

My baseball dream ended when I hurt my arm in high school and it finally gave out during my first year of college ball.

Had I known of a magic potion that would have made me stronger and kept the dream alive, I would have been no more hesitant to try it than I had been to chew tobacco. If my heroes had done it, that was all I needed to know.

The baseball stars got their names in the paper last week but we buried the lead to this story. Deep in the report it said hundreds of thousands of kids - kids who have the same dream I had - are putting their lives at risk using this stuff.

Who do we blame for that? Where are they getting it? How can their parents and even coaches NOT know?

That's where the follow-up stories should begin.

---

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by SAump

Garth this must be one of your weakest post to date. Out of respect I defer.

Before deferring, you should try reading with comprehension. Good preparation for that might be to start with the dictionary entry of sarcasm.

You have seen the silly house-to-house combat training military pesonnel and policeman undertake across our nation today. You have seen the technolgical demand for electronic/robotic vehicles. One immediate solution we have are plenty of well-trained K-9 companions. Armored vehicles, ballistic shields, body armor, night vision and electronic equipment will never replace the capability hunting dogs bring to the battlefield. Isn't dog breeding, by its very nature, a cultural thing?

No.

People even win wars with fighting gamecocks. Chickens behaved eratically during B52 bombing missions in Vietnam. This helped save the life of many a villager. Nothing better than a mean ole rooster guarding the hen house for an ole farmer prior to dawn. Damn roosters warned VC guerillas to climb back into their holes before American night patrols arrived with their more sophisicated night vision gear. VC carried roosters in their arms as they made their way safely through the jungle at night. A hungry VC never thought of eating his rooster. Isn't the raising of roosters a cultural thing?

Can be. Not always.

RIF, SA. I wrote that the simple locale of an activity did not make it a "cultural thing" as Jeff had said.

I did not write that a specific activity was not a cultural thing. An activity can indeed be "cultural" in some societies and not in others. The mutilation of women in female circumcision is a cultural activity in some societies and a felony in others.

My post simply referred to assigning an illegal activity to cultural status based on in what in part of the US it occurs. Fact is, illegal dog fighting occurs in most states. It is not solely confined to the redneck back woods of Virginia.

[SanDiegoSteve]

I submit that dog fighting is more of an activity for those with twisted, sick minds, rather than anything "cultural." It is about as socially acceptable as is the child molesting of which Garth referred.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I submit that dog fighting is more of an activity for those with twisted, sick minds, rather than anything "cultural." It is about as socially acceptable as is the child molesting of which Garth referred.

I disagree, but that is why we can debate these issues.

Peace

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I submit that dog fighting is...about as socially acceptable as is the child molesting of which Garth referred.

Only in a culture where the head of PITA is the Ayatollah. No, wait... in that case dog fighting would be worse than child molesting.

As it is, in our twisted USA pop culture, dog fighting is worse than murder of a domestic partner.

Cruelty to animals as a spectator sport / gambling activity is unacceptable behavior, but it is hardly in the same class as child molestation or murder. Not even close.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Only in a culture where the head of PITA is the Ayatollah. No, wait... in that case dog fighting would be worse than child molesting.

That would be PETA. Pita is a bread that you can eat.

The rest I agree with.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Dakota

As it is, in our twisted USA pop culture, dog fighting is worse than murder of a domestic partner.

May I assume that the above is hyperbole, or can you really name a state in which the prescribed penalty for dog fighting is more severe than that for murder?