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Old Fri Oct 26, 2007, 09:32am
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Richard is correct. If a fair batted ball makes contact with that part of a batter outside of the batter's box, he is out, dead ball, etc. etc. If said contact occurs against that part of a batter still inside the box, the official interp. is that it's simply a foul ball, even if it occurs in that small portion of the box that is technically in fair territory.

Now, here's today's trivia question: What percentage of the box is in fair territory? (Disclaimer: Chris Jaksa went into a fun geometric discussion of this in umpire school lo those many Moons ago.)
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Old Fri Oct 26, 2007, 10:22am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UMP25
Now, here's today's trivia question: What percentage of the box is in fair territory?
A batter's box is 48" by 72" which is an area of 3,456 sq. in. Home plate is 6 inches from the edge of the box. The edge of the foul ine that determines the terminus of fair territory cuts a 45° angle across the box. The foul line cuts off a equilateral triangle from the corner of the box where each leg is 30" long. Doing the math, the area of that small triangle is 450 sq. in. The ratio of the "fair" part of the batter's box would be 450/3456 which gives us a percentage of 13.02% of the batter's box is in fair territory.
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Old Fri Oct 26, 2007, 10:54am
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The ratio of the "fair" part of the batter's box would be 450/3456 which gives us a percentage of 13.02% of the batter's box is in fair territory.

I'll take your word for it, but only in a Euclidean universe. And you meant isosceles triangle, didn't you?
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Old Fri Oct 26, 2007, 10:57am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greymule
The ratio of the "fair" part of the batter's box would be 450/3456 which gives us a percentage of 13.02% of the batter's box is in fair territory.

I'll take your word for it, but only in a Euclidean universe. And you meant isosceles triangle, didn't you?
Since an equilateral triangle has equal sides and equal angles, and considering one of the angles in the "fair" triangle is 90 degrees and no triangle has 270 degrees, I'd guess he'd have to meant an isosceles triangle.
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Old Fri Oct 26, 2007, 11:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greymule
The ratio of the "fair" part of the batter's box would be 450/3456 which gives us a percentage of 13.02% of the batter's box is in fair territory.

I'll take your word for it, but only in a Euclidean universe. And you meant isosceles triangle, didn't you?
Yes, isosceles trangle. I was a geometry teacher in the 80's. I should have caught that one.
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Old Fri Oct 26, 2007, 01:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_Siegel
Yes, isosceles trangle. I was a geometry teacher in the 80's. I should have caught that one.
Not only that, but an isosceles right triangle (which is even easier).

Welcome to the board, Richard, nice to have you here.
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Old Fri Oct 26, 2007, 02:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron
Not only that, but an isosceles right triangle (which is even easier).

Welcome to the board, Richard, nice to have you here.
I knew that name looked familiar.
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Old Fri Oct 26, 2007, 11:17am
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I'm guessing this is one of those interpretations covered by the professional umpire's manual- the one that I don't have any access to!

I don't see it in there. However:

J/R: "If a batter chops a ball toward the dirt or the plate and it immediately strikes or comes up and strikes the batter, or his bat, it is a foul ball only and not interference. This usually occurs while the ball is over foul territory, but can occur over fair territory."

"It is not interference if [the batter's] batted ball bounces and immediately comes up and hits the bat a second time while the batter is still in the batter's box (foul ball)." [2002 BRD: "The same rule would apply to a batted ball hitting the batter."]

Evans gives some history and acknowledges the problem but seems to say that the safest call is foul: "Professional umpires try to scrutinize the exact feet location when a drag bunt is attempted. In most all [sic] other situations in which the batter is hit with his fair batted ball, the ball is ruled 'foul' if the batter is still within the confines of the batter's box."

[Emphasis is mine.]

Perhaps the best way to call it is similar to "ball hits bat" versus "bat hits ball." If the ball bounces up sharply and hits the batter over fair territory before a foot is out of the box, then call it foul. If the batter's foot, not yet on the ground, hits the ball over fair territory, then call the out, with benefit of the doubt going to the batter.

Richard, you might be interested to know that a co-worker recently finished his Ph.D. at Penn, his thesis being on what educational factors are key to success. The single most important course was geometry. (Now whether studying geometry leads to success or people who are going to be successful take geometry is another question, but geometry was the key marker.)
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Last edited by greymule; Fri Oct 26, 2007 at 11:25am.
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Old Fri Oct 26, 2007, 10:58am
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What I'm arguing, and what I'm sure Francona was arguing, is that Lugo was still in the batter's box when the ball contacted him. He had not yet left the box. He had started to leave the box, as the ball hit him while his left foot was in mid-air on its first step. Still in the box. Hadn't yet left box. Not yet out of batters box. If a ball bounces up and hits the runner before he has left the batter's box, how is he out?

I thought we discussed this at length and determined that to call the batter out on this was OOO. If the batter had already left the box, I could understand calling him out, but he had not even taken a step yet.
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Old Fri Oct 26, 2007, 11:01am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve
What I'm arguing, and what I'm sure Francona was arguing, is that Lugo was still in the batter's box when the ball contacted him. He had not yet left the box. He had started to leave the box, as the ball hit him while his left foot was in mid-air on its first step. Still in the box. Hadn't yet left box. Not yet out of batters box. If a ball bounces up and hits the runner before he has left the batter's box, how is he out?

I thought we discussed this at length and determined that to call the batter out on this was OOO. If the batter had already left the box, I could understand calling him out, but he had not even taken a step yet.
Steve, I believe that has to be tempered with where the contact took place. If the contact was clearly, as I remember in this case, in front of the plate, I believe MLB umpires are going to call the out, whether or not his foot as yet touched the ground.
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Old Fri Oct 26, 2007, 11:15am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarthB
Steve, I believe that has to be tempered with where the contact took place. If the contact was clearly, as I remember in this case, in front of the plate, I believe MLB umpires are going to call the out, whether or not his foot as yet touched the ground.
Ok, that makes sense when you put it that way. I would probably have a hard time selling that to a HS coach, however.
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Old Fri Oct 26, 2007, 03:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_Siegel
A batter's box is 48" by 72" which is an area of 3,456 sq. in. Home plate is 6 inches from the edge of the box. The edge of the foul ine that determines the terminus of fair territory cuts a 45° angle across the box. The foul line cuts off a equilateral triangle from the corner of the box where each leg is 30" long. Doing the math, the area of that small triangle is 450 sq. in. The ratio of the "fair" part of the batter's box would be 450/3456 which gives us a percentage of 13.02% of the batter's box is in fair territory.
You are correct, though Jaksa rounded it down and said 13%.

Congratulations on being the first one to submit the correct answer. Contact Mr. Jenkins for your prize.
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Old Fri Oct 26, 2007, 05:57pm
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How about the balk call in game one. It was obvious that the pitcher stepped more towards home on the pick off move. Those clowns announcing the game didn't have a clue until they played back the "sounds of the game" when the umpire could be heard explaining the balk call.
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Old Fri Oct 26, 2007, 06:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest Ump
How about the balk call in game one. It was obvious that the pitcher stepped more towards home on the pick off move. Those clowns announcing the game didn't have a clue until they played back the "sounds of the game" when the umpire could be heard explaining the balk call.
Really? I heard them say right away that the umpire must have felt that the pitcher did not step toward first, but McCarver thought he had stepped enough toward first.

Ol' Ed made the proper, gutsy call, while Laz stood there at 1B like a statue in the set position.
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Old Fri Oct 26, 2007, 09:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve
Really? I heard them say right away that the umpire must have felt that the pitcher did not step toward first, but McCarver thought he had stepped enough toward first.

Ol' Ed made the proper, gutsy call, while Laz stood there at 1B like a statue in the set position.

I didn't catch that. They re-played it several times and questioned why the 1st base umpire didn't call it. It was a great call for sure.

Hope all is safe for you down there. I had a lot of friends that had to be evacuated. Fortunately none loss their homes.
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