Good call?

BigUmpJohn · #1 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 14, 2003, 10:49pm

I saw this one a couple of nights ago.

10U ASA game. R1 on 2nd, 2 outs. B2 hits a high pop up behind 2B (VERY SHALLOW center). While looking up at the ball, F6 unintentionally knocks down R1 who is on their way to 3B. F6 has no opportunity to make a play on the ball. Ball drops in. R1 gets up, goes to 3B, delays for a second while her coach urges her to go to home, goes, then slides about 5 feet short of F2 who tags her out. Home team coach erupts saying that she should get home. Umpire says no.

My opinion: Good call because of the distance the ball was hit, the delay at 3B, and the slide 5 feet short of home. I do not think she would've made it home without the obstruction.

I know this is a HTBT, but your opinions?

Dakota · #2 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 14, 2003, 11:11pm

Assuming the catcher was not also obstructing (leading to the short slide)...

Knocking the runner down gives her quite a bit of leeway, but the chances are if the ball was fielded cleanly, she would not have made home anyway, so this was a good call.

Pausing for a second at 3rd probably did not "make up" for the delay in her progress from being knocked down, but the short throw to home from F8 (or whoever) most likely means she would have only been protected to 3rd.

HTBT for sure. Sounds like a good call.

whiskers_ump · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 15, 2003, 07:35am

BUJ,

Agree with Tom. HTBT.
From your description of
the play R1 probably only protected to 3B. Remembering
how 10U's play, sounds like a good call.

glen

Del-Blue · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 15, 2003, 10:52am

). While looking up at the ball, F6 unintentionally knocks down R1 who is on their way to 3B. F6 has no opportunity to make a play on the ball. Ball drops in.

Sounds like it could be interferance on the runner

MichaelVA2000 · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 15, 2003, 11:07am

Quote:

Originally posted by Del-Blue
). While looking up at the ball, F6 unintentionally knocks down R1 who is on their way to 3B. F6 has no opportunity to make a play on the ball. Ball drops in.

Sounds like it could be interferance on the runner

Interferance on the runner was my first thought until I read where the post said F6 had no play on the fly ball. IMHO I think it was a good call unless F2 obstructed R1 by blocking the plate without the ball.

Michael

Andy · #6 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 15, 2003, 11:36am

I disagree with my esteemed colleagues.....

(How many of you have ever been called "esteemed" before?)

Someone (Steve M, I believe) has said that as a rule of thumb, obstruction is worth at least two strides to the runner. Since this runner was "knocked down", according to the description, she probably deserves greater leeway.

My assumption here is that F2 is near the plate when she receives the ball. IMHO, the obstruction is worth the five feet by which she was out. I will award her home.

One thing that I try to use with obstruction is to give all benefit of the doubt to the offense. After all, the defense violated.

TexBlue · #7 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 15, 2003, 12:12pm

Did the BU or PU ever give the obstruction sign? If so, when did the arm get dropped? Knowing this will determine if the girl was protected to home or not. The coach should have been watching for this. If the arm was dropped shortly before 3rd, she ain't getting home from me. I know a lot of the umpires I call with will drop the arm shortly before the obstructed runner gets to the base the blue will give her. (Award her ) This lets the coach and/or runner know where the protection is to. Go any further and it's at your own risk.

It is a HTBT, but knowing when the arm was dropped on the delayed ball signal will also determine if it was a good call or not. At least in my eyes.

Rick

Andy · #8 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 15, 2003, 01:51pm

Quote:

Originally posted by TexBlue
Did the BU or PU ever give the obstruction sign? If so, when did the arm get dropped? Knowing this will determine if the girl was protected to home or not. The coach should have been watching for this. If the arm was dropped shortly before 3rd, she ain't getting home from me. I know a lot of the umpires I call with will drop the arm shortly before the obstructed runner gets to the base the blue will give her. (Award her ) This lets the coach and/or runner know where the protection is to. Go any further and it's at your own risk.

It is a HTBT, but knowing when the arm was dropped on the delayed ball signal will also determine if it was a good call or not. At least in my eyes.

Rick

I don't think that you can make the determination of protection at the time of the obstruction. The umpire needs to hold the delayed dead ball signal until the entire play is complete.

Play: R1 on second, base hit to outfield. F6 bumps R1 off stride between second and third.

If you have only decided to protect the player to third and the outfielder bobbles the ball, but still recovers and throws to get the runner on a banger at home, are you still going to call her out? If she would not have been obstructed between second and third, she would have scored standing up.

In my opinion, obstruction is one of the least understood and inconsistantly applied rules by umpires. It allows for a tremendous amount of judgement and "what if" by the umpire. I think that a lot of umpires are too quick to drop their "protection" and penalize the offense instead of the defense.

CecilOne · #9 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 15, 2003, 02:01pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Andy
... snip ... My assumption here is that F2 is near the plate when she receives the ball. IMHO, the obstruction is worth the five feet by which she was out. I will award her home.
One thing that I try to use with obstruction is to give all benefit of the doubt to the offense. After all, the defense violated.

I would agree, except for the pause at 3rd. That reads as enough time for the five feet she needed at home; not the obstruction. Then I read "delays for a second" again and thought a second might not be enough for five feet. Anyway, that would be my basis for choosing between 3rd and home.

And I agree with "I don't think that you can make the determination of protection at the time of the obstruction. The umpire needs to hold the delayed dead ball signal until the entire play is complete"

TexBlue · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 15, 2003, 02:09pm

I disagree with holding the arm out until the play stops. If you do so, you are still indicating the obstruction is protecting the runner. You can't determing after the play if you uphold the obstruction or not. This is really, really, placing the runner in jeopardy. If they think they are protected, they're gonna run. If they don't see the arm up, they realize the obstruction is no longer protecting them and they are advancing at their own risk. They can't read your mind, you have to give a signal. They especially can't read your mind, if you don't make the decision until the play is over with.

Rick

Andy · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 15, 2003, 03:17pm

Rick,

I'm not trying to be argumentative, cantankerous, or any of those other "McGriff" type things.

How would you rule on this play and what signals and mechanics would you use? Thanks

Quote:

Originally posted by Andy

Play: R1 on second, base hit to outfield. F6 bumps R1 off stride between second and third.

If you have only decided to protect the player to third and the outfielder bobbles the ball, but still recovers and throws to get the runner on a banger at home, are you still going to call her out?

TexBlue · #12 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 15, 2003, 03:39pm

I don't consider this argumentative. It's just a good discussion. You might even change my mind, over time. Doubtful, but possible. Gotta show me in the rule bool to convince me.

In the scenario you gave, it would depend on the loaction of the ball in the OF as to which base I give, and also the amount of contact. If the runner in knocked down, I'll give home, if it's just a slight bump, it depends on the momentum, the change in it and the position of the ball at the obstruction. I probably won't even consider a bobble, unless it happens during or before the obstruction. I still have to think you gotta give the offense the signal only until you quit protecting the runner. If you have the arm out and aren't protecting the runner, why is it still out and how will the offense know you aren't protecting them anymore?

Rick

Dakota · #13 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 15, 2003, 03:55pm

I disagree with the whole notion that the umpire holds the arm out as long as runner protection is in force and that dropping the arm signals that the runner is no longer protected.

All dropping the arm signifies is that I believe I have held the signal long enough for the players to see that I've got something to say once this play is over.

The judgment I must make on obstruction is "What base would this runner have achieved had there been no obstruction?"

In the general case, how can I possibly make that judgment until the play is complete? Are you saying you decide at the time of the obstruction how this play will finish? You can't. You can make a provisional judgment that you are protecting the runner to the next base, or for two bases or whatever, but how the play actually does unfold can also affect the final judgment.

TexBlue · #14 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 15, 2003, 08:13pm

But, then, how does the offense know what to do? You are handicapping them by not letting them know the situation. Do they just stop running and hope the umpire gives them the correct number of bases. Or, worse, that they even saw the obstruction. By not signalling, you are giving the advantage to the defense, who committed the obstruction in the 1st place. To me, this just puts the offense in a no win situation.

BigUmpJohn · #15 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 15, 2003, 10:18pm

To add some extra details to the original post...

From what I remember, the runner was knocked to her bottom, looked at the umpire, got up, and ran to 3B. (Remember, this is 10U.)

The ball was hit about 6-10 feet behind second base. This was very shallow center.

The stop at 3B was about one or two seconds, long enough for her to realize that everyone was yelling for her to run home.

Unfotunaltely, I was watching the runner and so I didn't see if the umpire had a DDB signal or not.

I don't believe obstruction on F2 is a possibility. F2 had the ball about a full second before the runner got there, from what I remember.

Hope that clears up some things.