MLB suspends Winters

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Your post is not consistent with the facts.

Meacham accused Winters of a "racial comment" in his first comments to the media. He later changed that to a comment that "could be taken" as a racial comment. He later dropped the allegation all together when the F3 was called to testify.

The facts were determined by MLB by interviewing the people involved, not by reading the newspapers.

Blaming the first base coach may make you feel better.

But Winters was the one punished.

[PeteBooth]

From one of Garth's responses

If the Haller/Weaver tete a tete happened today, Haller would be suspended for saying "F*ck you, Earl."

Perhaps someone can repost the link to this infamous episode as IMO it is the crux of the discussion.

During the exchange for the most part all you heard is the word F**k coming from both Earl and Haller.

Did Earl go to MLB and accuse Haller of "baiting him" or using profanity - NO. It was the accepted practice back then.

We do not know what evidence MLB has and probably will never know.

The race card was used and we all know how powerful that is whether right / wrong.

Is MLB "sending a message" to the umpires - Probably. Is Winters the "sacrificial lamb" - Do not know.

Also, this incident is more prevelant in the Umpires discussion Forums then in the "court of public opinion" Unless an official is suspended for Gambling charges, drug abuse, alcoholism or something along those lines it is not newsworhty. Yes it was on ESPN for maybe a couple of days but it is now dropped.

The mistake made by Winters was that he knew well in advance that Bradley is a "time bomb" and anything derragatory said to him would send off armagedon.

Also, if there was no racial comments said then IMO the First base coach should be suspended as well. As mentioned we all know the power of accusing someone of racism and intially the 1B coach accused Winters of that. Then he changed his tune, therefore, he should also be suspended.

Winters career might well be over. In addition we do not know if MLB wanted to get "get rid of some umpires" and was looking for any valid reason to do so.

Pete Booth

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

From one of Garth's responses



Perhaps someone can repost the link to this infamous episode as IMO it is the crux of the discussion.

During the exchange for the most part all you heard is the word F**k coming from both Earl and Haller.

Did Earl go to MLB and accuse Haller of "baiting him" or using profanity - NO. It was the accepted practice back then.

Here ya go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or1_1Cktdvs

Included you'll hear Haller tell Weaver: "You're full of sh!t", "Phuck you" and "You ain't no phuckin' good, Earl."

Today, Haller would suspended for the rest of the season.

[mattmets]

Haller also told him he would be in the Hall of Fame "for what, *ucking up World Series, Earl?"

Such a personal attack today would probably get an umpire hung!

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by mattmets

Haller also told him he would be in the Hall of Fame "for what, *ucking up World Series, Earl?"

Such a personal attack today would probably get an umpire hung!

I still don't see the similarity between using a word in a conversation (which your example is, not a personal attack), and using the word in a personal description of someone. Doesn't anyone understand that name-calling is totally different from just using a bad word in a sentence?

"You're horsesh*t" and "you're a piece of horsesh*t" are two TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS.

I'm sure Weaver thought what Haller said was funny as hell. I thought it was when I first heard it years ago. I don't recall Haller calling Weaver a "*ucking piece of sh!t" or I would have remembered it.

There is also a thing called context. Even if Haller had called Weaver a name, Weaver probably would have just called Haller a name back. You don't call a player with a reputation as an explosive hothead a name to which he is certainly going to react violently.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I still don't see the similarity between using a word in a conversation (which your example is, not a personal attack), and using the word in a personal description of someone. Doesn't anyone understand that name-calling is totally different from just using a bad word in a sentence?

You don't think "You ain't no phuckin' good" is personal? I think if Winters had said that to him, Bradley would have gone off just as he did.

I'm sure Weaver thought what Haller said was funny as hell.

You'd be wrong to think that. Weave hated Haller and said so several times. He complained to the league numerous time, both trying to get Haller transfrered and fired.

There is also a thing called context. Even if Haller had called Weaver a name, Weaver probably would have just called Haller a name back. You don't call a player with a reputation as an explosive hothead a name to which he is certainly going to react violently.

Now you want umpires to be responsible for the actions of the players. Even if they act the part, players aren't babies. They need to be held accountable for their own actions. Being an explosive hothead is no reason to be allowed to be an explosive hothead, even for phuckin piece of sh!t like Bradley.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Garth, there is a big difference between saying "you're no (whatever) good" and "you're a (whatever) piece of (whatever).

A coach can tell me I'm no f-ing good and all he will get is ejected.

The same coach calls me a f-ing piece of sh!t is likely to see me sometime later and be spitting out chiclets.

I guess I'm just a piece of sh!t like Bradley, because I probably would have wanted to punch Winters too if he had called me that.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Winters career might well be over. In addition we do not know if MLB wanted to get "get rid of some umpires" and was looking for any valid reason to do so.

From where are you getting any of this? Why should this be anything more than a routine suspension? I can't see MLB turning this into any more than it already is. Mike Winters has a previously unblemished career and is an outstanding umpire. I can't really see MLB wanting to "get rid" of one of their finer officials.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

From where are you getting any of this? Why should this be anything more than a routine suspension? I can't see MLB turning this into any more than it already is. Mike Winters has a previously unblemished career and is an outstanding umpire. I can't really see MLB wanting to "get rid" of one of their finer officials.

I agree, and hope we're both right.

However, I do believe this puts a future crew chief position for Mike out of the question, effectively giving him a career long punishment and fine.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by GarthB

I agree, and hope we're both right.

However, I do believe this puts a future crew chief position for Mike out of the question, effectively giving him a career long punishment and fine.

I was under the impression that Winters was going to receive Froemming's CC position. You may be right. If so, that's a shame.

Back in 1998, Sam Holbrook ejected Mark McGwire during his run on the home run record. In 1999, Holbrook was repaid by having his resignation be one of the ones accepted. It took him a while to get back his job.

[PeteBooth]

From my response above

Winters career might well be over.

I was simply expressing an opinion based upon the fact that Winters is suspended. At this point all we know is that Winters is done for the season and playoffs.

How can you call this a routine suspension when an umpire is suspended for not only the remainder of the season but playoffs as well.

A "routine suspension" is a game or 2 not the rest of the season and playoffs.

Winters suspension is more than simply routine which prompted my comment. Also, let's get real here. Competition for MLB umpires jobs is very competetive so what are the odds on Winters getting a crew chief position and also working next years playoffs?

Pete Booth

[SanDiegoSteve]

Like I have previously posted, I have been suspended for much longer for much less. I don't think this suspension is out of line. If they had just suspended him for the remaining few games of the season, what good would that have done? That would be like a slap on the wrist.

I don't see any reason why Winters won't be in the playoffs next year. As for crew chief, I don't know.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

The facts were determined by MLB by interviewing the people involved, not by reading the newspapers.

Blaming the first base coach may make you feel better.

But Winters was the one punished.

Either you do not read with comprehension or you do not write what you mean.

You wrote: "Winters was not accused of racism, he was found guilty of being profane and abusive," to which I correctly replied that he was indeed accused of a making a racial statement, falsely as it turned out.

MLB did not make the accusations. MLB adjudged the accusations. Winters was found to not have made a racial comment. He was found guilty of making a "profane" comment to a player, which, up to now, has not been grounds for suspension.

So, it appears, as I stated early on, it would seem the rules have changed.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Either you do not read with comprehension or you do not write what you mean.

You wrote: "Winters was not accused of racism, he was found guilty of being profane and abusive," to which I correctly replied that he was indeed accused of a making a racial statement, falsely as it turned out.

MLB did not make the accusations. MLB adjudged the accusations. Winters was found to not have made a racial comment. He was found guilty of making a "profane" comment to a player, which, up to now, has not been grounds for suspension.

So, it appears, as I stated early on, it would seem the rules have changed.

No, there was a newspaper quote that you concluded was an accusation of racism. What Meacham told MLB is not known, except to MLB.

No umpire has ever been suspended from MLB for making a profane statement? If so, then Winters must have broken new ground in what he said and in the manner he delivered it.

Since their were 4 parties to the incident and the only one punished was the umpire what is a reasonable person to conclude?

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

No, there was a newspaper quote that you concluded was an accusation of racism. What Meacham told MLB is not known, except to MLB.

No umpire has ever been suspended from MLB for making a profane statement? If so, then Winters must have broken new ground in what he said and in the manner he delivered it.

Since their were 4 parties to the incident and the only one punished was the umpire what is a reasonable person to conclude?

I don't know if you are unable to read or just being purposefully dense.

1. The racial accusation was made by Meacham, not MLB.

2. MLB made no accusations, they considered those made by others.

3. MLB punished Winters for making a profane statement, not for making a racial statement.

4. Most likely, all of the punishments are either not being made public or have not been completed at this point.

5. Winters was wrong by today's standards and was punished. I have never argued otherwise.

6. Meacham is a lying rat bast@rd who, most likely will get away with being a lying rat bast@rd.

7. Bradley is, well...no sense discussing that phucking piece of sh!t again.

8. Time for you to go back on the ignore list.

9. I'm done with this thread.