MLB suspends Winters

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

I didn't know you were a Giant fan. I guess you are SanFranciscoSteve, since they are the loser team with the most acrobatic shortstop in the NL.

I don't consider Visquel to be acrobatic, he just has the best range of all shortstops, and a great fielding percentage. Give me Khalil Greene anyday for exciting, impossible looking plays. I'll put up his highlight reel up against Visquel's anytime. Unless you live here, you don't get to see all the unbelievable plays he makes, because they don't make Sports Center due to the late games of the West coast.

Oh yeah, I had forgotten to mention the all-time saves leader, who has 42 this season and over 500 for his career who plays on this lousy team.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

Winters was not accused of racism, he was found guilty of being profane and abusive.

Your post is not consistent with the facts.

Meacham accused Winters of a "racial comment" in his first comments to the media. He later changed that to a comment that "could be taken" as a racial comment. He later dropped the allegation all together when the F3 was called to testify.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Correct me if I am wrong, but Winters said something to his partner and his partner said something to Bradley. Then when Bradley got on base, he was confronted by him. That does not sound like sticking his nose into anything. I will always have my partner's back. I have no problems on Winters telling his partner about a player's action.

Peace

I think the sequence of events was something like this...

The PU rings up Bradley, who throws has bat. The PU doesn't take much notice of the thrown bat.

Winters informs the PU that Bradley threw his bat at him.

When Bradley comes up again, the PU mentions the incident to Bradley and, apparently, adds that the 1st base umpire had told him about it.

Bradley gets a hit and reaches first.

When Bradley arrives at 1st, words are exchanged between Bradley and Winters. It is unclear who started it, but I suspect it probably started with Bradley saying something to Winters.

Even if Bradley "started it", Winters should not say anything that would put fuel on the fire ... which apparently he DID.

There is plenty of blame to go around - of that I'll agree.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I don't consider Visquel to be acrobatic, he just has the best range of all shortstops, and a great fielding percentage. Give me Khalil Greene anyday for exciting, impossible looking plays. I'll put up his highlight reel up against Visquel's anytime. Unless you live here, you don't get to see all the unbelievable plays he makes, because they don't make Sports Center due to the late games of the West coast.

Oh yeah, I had forgotten to mention the all-time saves leader, who has 42 this season and over 500 for his career who plays on this lousy team.

I never consider acrobatic plays to be the indication of a Gold Glove player. Hell, I've made plenty of acrobatic plays in my lifetime. Let me break it down for you.

Omar Vizquel won nine Gold Gloves in a row in the American League before the unbalanced schedule went into effect. He has won the last two in National League at the age of 38 and 39. Vizquel also has the Major League record for career double plays by a shortstop. Also, he has the lifetime career fielding percentage (.985) for a shortstop in major league history. I believe Major League Baseball bases such things on a thousand games.

Now your boy Greene, has a lifetime fielding percentage of .975, to go along with career batting averag of .254. This compares with Omar's career average of .275.

You just never saw Omar play enough to appreciate what a master he was, and still is, in the field.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

I never consider acrobatic plays to be the indication of a Gold Glove player. Hell, I've made plenty of acrobatic plays in my lifetime. Let me break it down for you.

Omar Vizquel won nine Gold Gloves in a row in the American League before the unbalanced schedule went into effect. He has won the last two in National League at the age of 38 and 39. Vizquel also has the Major League record for career double plays by a shortstop. Also, he has the lifetime career fielding percentage (.985) for a shortstop in major league history. I believe Major League Baseball bases such things on a thousand games.

Now your boy Greene, has a lifetime fielding percentage of .975, to go along with career batting averag of .254. This compares with Omar's career average of .275.

You just never saw Omar play enough to appreciate what a master he was, and still is, in the field.

First of all, I doubt that you have ever been the class of athlete either Vizquel or Greene are, so your acrobatic talent counts for squadouche.

Second, how do you know how much of Omar I've seen? I've seen plenty. I watched all the games back in the day when he was with Cleveland. I know what a great shortstop he is. I will still put up Greene's highlight reel up against Vizquel's head-to-head. I've been around this game just as long as you have, so don't think you know any more about baseball than I do because that's just not the case.

I never tried to compare statistics, I just said that for my money, Greene is more exciting to watch. For me. How do think you can compare Vizquel to Greene. Greene is just at the start of his career. He is still on the upswing. Vizquel, whether you admit it or not, is in his twilight years.

Greene not only makes the spectacular plays, but he is a fine everyday shortstop who makes very few errors and has a cannon arm.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Now I will compare 2007 (the only relevant season) statistics:

Greene: AVE - .254, OBP - .293, Slugging pct. - .470, OPS - .763

Doubles - 44, HR - 26, RBI - 96.

Vizquel: AVE - .245, OBP - .304, Slugging pct. - .309, OPS - .613

Doubles - 18, HR - 3, RBI - 49.

So, for this season at least, I think I'll take Khalil Greene.

Oh, Khalil has your boy hangin'.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Your post is not consistent with the facts.

Meacham accused Winters of a "racial comment" in his first comments to the media. He later changed that to a comment that "could be taken" as a racial comment. He later dropped the allegation all together when the F3 was called to testify.

The facts were determined by MLB by interviewing the people involved, not by reading the newspapers.

Blaming the first base coach may make you feel better.

But Winters was the one punished.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

I think the sequence of events was something like this...

The PU rings up Bradley, who throws has bat. The PU doesn't take much notice of the thrown bat.

Winters informs the PU that Bradley threw his bat at him.

When Bradley comes up again, the PU mentions the incident to Bradley and, apparently, adds that the 1st base umpire had told him about it.

Bradley gets a hit and reaches first.

When Bradley arrives at 1st, words are exchanged between Bradley and Winters. It is unclear who started it, but I suspect it probably started with Bradley saying something to Winters.

Even if Bradley "started it", Winters should not say anything that would put fuel on the fire ... which apparently he DID.

There is plenty of blame to go around - of that I'll agree.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

With Winters taking the "hit" as he should.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by mbyron

The issue of "baiting" strikes me as a red herring. It seems to assume that the baitee is not in control of himself, and (mis)places the responsibility for such lack of control on others who might "say the wrong thing," on purpose or by accident.

Aw, the crux, mbyron, adults or not, accountable or not?

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by fitump56

Aw, the crux, mbyron, adults or not, accountable or not?

Your previous post suggests that Winters should be the one held accountable. This post seems to suggest that all involved should be held accountable. Which is it?

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Your previous post suggests that Winters should be the one held accountable. This post seems to suggest that all involved should be held accountable. Which is it?

Both. Winters should be held to a higher accountability imo. Personally as well as professionally.

[PeteBooth]

From one of Garth's responses

If the Haller/Weaver tete a tete happened today, Haller would be suspended for saying "F*ck you, Earl."

Perhaps someone can repost the link to this infamous episode as IMO it is the crux of the discussion.

During the exchange for the most part all you heard is the word F**k coming from both Earl and Haller.

Did Earl go to MLB and accuse Haller of "baiting him" or using profanity - NO. It was the accepted practice back then.

We do not know what evidence MLB has and probably will never know.

The race card was used and we all know how powerful that is whether right / wrong.

Is MLB "sending a message" to the umpires - Probably. Is Winters the "sacrificial lamb" - Do not know.

Also, this incident is more prevelant in the Umpires discussion Forums then in the "court of public opinion" Unless an official is suspended for Gambling charges, drug abuse, alcoholism or something along those lines it is not newsworhty. Yes it was on ESPN for maybe a couple of days but it is now dropped.

The mistake made by Winters was that he knew well in advance that Bradley is a "time bomb" and anything derragatory said to him would send off armagedon.

Also, if there was no racial comments said then IMO the First base coach should be suspended as well. As mentioned we all know the power of accusing someone of racism and intially the 1B coach accused Winters of that. Then he changed his tune, therefore, he should also be suspended.

Winters career might well be over. In addition we do not know if MLB wanted to get "get rid of some umpires" and was looking for any valid reason to do so.

Pete Booth

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by fitump56

Both. Winters should be held to a higher accountability imo. Personally as well as professionally.

I have always believed that we as sports officials must be held to standards higher than that of the players over whom we reign, for we are the ones entrusted to guard the very integrity of the game. Managers cheat; coaches cheat; players cheat. They all do unseemly things. Umpires must not ever do any of these. If we do, then the game's integrity is lost.

However, what Winters did does not deserve his firing, despite what that nutjob jimpiano says.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

The facts were determined by MLB by interviewing the people involved, not by reading the newspapers.

Blaming the first base coach may make you feel better.

But Winters was the one punished.

Either you do not read with comprehension or you do not write what you mean.

You wrote: "Winters was not accused of racism, he was found guilty of being profane and abusive," to which I correctly replied that he was indeed accused of a making a racial statement, falsely as it turned out.

MLB did not make the accusations. MLB adjudged the accusations. Winters was found to not have made a racial comment. He was found guilty of making a "profane" comment to a player, which, up to now, has not been grounds for suspension.

So, it appears, as I stated early on, it would seem the rules have changed.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

From one of Garth's responses



Perhaps someone can repost the link to this infamous episode as IMO it is the crux of the discussion.

During the exchange for the most part all you heard is the word F**k coming from both Earl and Haller.

Did Earl go to MLB and accuse Haller of "baiting him" or using profanity - NO. It was the accepted practice back then.

Here ya go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or1_1Cktdvs

Included you'll hear Haller tell Weaver: "You're full of sh!t", "Phuck you" and "You ain't no phuckin' good, Earl."

Today, Haller would suspended for the rest of the season.