Pitcher taking signals.

[MD Longhorn]

But by your logic, if F1 simply gets the ball from another fielder, steps up to the rubber and pitches, without taking any signs from ANYone, he's broken no rules. And we all know that is not correct.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

But by your logic, if F1 simply gets the ball from another fielder, steps up to the rubber and pitches, without taking any signs from ANYone, he's broken no rules. And we all know that is not correct.

No, we don't all know that. You know that. I know differently. As long as the pitcher does not pitch before the batter is reasonably set in the batter's box, he need not take any signs. The taking signs rule is there for in case he takes signs. Some pitchers I've seen have only one pitch. What the hell do they need signs for? There is no requirement that signs be actually given, just the manner in which they must be given..."shall be from the rubber." That naturally means "not from any other location."

We are going to have to agree to disagree. Use whatever method you want. Not one single manager or coach in 21 years of umpiring has ever questioned when I have instructed the pitcher to engage the rubber before taking signs.

I have never allowed pitchers to get their signs off the rubber and then quickly step on and pitch, and this is the only reason for taking the signs off the rubber. They try to hold the runners close by doing it this way and it is just plain wrong.

[MD Longhorn]

It's plain wrong. I agree. But if this pitcher has only 1 pitch, as you say, you'll allow them to hold runners this way? That's inconsistent ... and just plain wrong.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

It's plain wrong. I agree. But if this pitcher has only 1 pitch, as you say, you'll allow them to hold runners this way? That's inconsistent ... and just plain wrong.

No, the pitcher has to step on the rubber and allow the batter to get reasonably set in the box. This gives runners plenty of time to get their leads.

If I see a pitcher try to pull the quick step on and pitch act, I will surely not allow them to do it. I will call "Time" every time I see a pitcher try a quick pitch, whether it is intended to fool that batter or the runner, it makes no difference to me.

[SanDiegoSteve]

cbfoulds:

Please cite sources for your time-honored interpretation, because I don't see it in print anywhere. I've searched JEA And MLBUM and there is no such interpretation. Is this just traditional, regional, folklore, what? Show me one shred of a document that says pitchers can take signs from the catcher while off the rubber. I'm not talking about signs from daddy in the stands. Also, I am the one saying that there is no requirement to take a sign at all. As long as the batter is not quick pitched, the pitcher need not take any signs.

[kylejt]

Four pages, and no one has stepped up to define what a sign is.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by kylejt

Four pages, and no one has stepped up to define what a sign is.

I don't believe this thread was ever about signals, signs, messages from heaven, osmosis or interpretive non-verbal analysis by a pitcher.

It just wasn't.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by kylejt

Four pages, and no one has stepped up to define what a sign is.

Here is how I determine what a sign is. Assume I am in the B or C position so I can see both parties.

• F1 contacts the rubber and looks to F2.
• Any movement that F2 makes (or lack thereof) would be a sign (in my opinion)

It's that simple! This is why I cannot understand the hang-up everyone has about "signs from the catcher".

To address the latter part of this discussion, F1 straddling the rubber as if taking signs then picking off a runner would be a balk.

Regards

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

No, the pitcher has to step on the rubber and allow the batter to get reasonably set in the box. This gives runners plenty of time to get their leads.

If I see a pitcher try to pull the quick step on and pitch act, I will surely not allow them to do it. I will call "Time" every time I see a pitcher try a quick pitch, whether it is intended to fool that batter or the runner, it makes no difference to me.

SDS:

After you call "time," then what are you going to do?

MTD, Sr.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

SDS:

After you call "time," then what are you going to do?

MTD, Sr.

I'm betting he's going to balk him if there are runners...............


Tim.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

I'm betting he's going to balk him if there are runners...............


Tim.

I'm betting not. Perhaps if some of you that so strongly defend never kicking dirt off the rubber would do so, then the runner could see if the pitcher was straddling the rubber.

BTW-6-2-5 doesn't apply to this situation. Straddling the rubber is not a motion associated with a pitch. The key word is motion. Standing still and straddling the rubber is not motion.

And one more thing. It is the catcher giving the signs when the pitcher is off the rubber. Why penalize the pitcher? This a simple FED rule that many are butchering.

Not a balk. Never has been and never will be.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

I'm betting he's going to balk him if there are runners...............


Tim.

It really depends on the level. In some lower levels, and if I feel that the pitcher simply doesn't know better, on the first such offense I will usually call "Time" and instruct his coach to tell him to take his signs on the rubber and allow the batter to get reasonably set in the box [Rule 8.05(e) comment].

In big boy ball it is most assuredly a balk for an intentional quick pitch designed to hinder either the batter or a base runner.

[cbfoulds]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

There is no requirement that signs be actually given, just the manner in which they must be given..."shall be from the rubber." That naturally means "not from any other location."


I have never allowed pitchers to get their signs off the rubber and then quickly step on and pitch, and this is the only reason for taking the signs off the rubber.

You may have aced Logic, but you are doing poorly in Semantics.

1st snippet:
"shall be from the rubber"... Quote marks usually indicate a quote. I hope we can agree that what you "quoted" is not, in fact, a quote of any Rule [at least none relevent to this thread]. What the Rule ACTUALLY says [Fed: 6-1-1] "[the pitcher] shall take his sign from the catcher with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate. " [OBR: 8.01] "Pitchers shall take signs from the catcher while standing on the rubber."

NEITHER of those versions of the Rule says or logically implies that F1:
# Needs to take any "sign" at all...
# May ONLY take signs from the catcher...
# May ONLY take signs from the rubber....

The usual and customary interpretation has been, time out of mind, that TO PREVENT A QUICK PITCH, F1 must take, or simulate taking, a sign from F2 after coming into contact with the pitching rubber [or "plate"] and before pitching. To be clear:
*No actual sign need be given...
*F1 may take signs from F2, his coach, his daddy or g/f in the stands, or The Great Hairy Thunderer... and
* he can take those signs, if any, anywhere he damn pleases [one caveat - wait for it], as long as he takes or simulates taking a sign from F2 after contact w/ the rubber and before pitching.

The caveat is what Garth [and, I think I remember, Bob] is/are talking about: IN FED, straddling the rubber and looking in for a sign MAY be interpreted as motions associated with the pitch - a balk if performed/ simulated while not in contact with the rubber.

2d snippet:

"quickly step on and pitch, ... this is the only reason for taking the signs off the rubber." Not so, and this is demonstrated in the OP, where "signs" are taken OFF the rubber, then F1 steps on and takes [or appears to take] ANOTHER sign, in compliance with the Rule. There are MANY reasons why this is done, far too many to list; but one should suffice:

Scratching your nose on the rubber is a balk in FED ball [motion associated with pitch]: F1 gets balked for this ONE TIME, and if he's got a coach that insists on the catcher giving 311 "signs" before each pitch, he'll wait until the end of the meaningless chatter before he climbs into the position of peril.