Pitcher taking signals.

[mbyron]

Have to disagree here, Bob. The infractions penalized for a balk are listed in 6-2-4, and taking signals off the rubber is not listed there.

The relevant rule is 6-1-1, and the relevant sentence is:

He shall take his sign from the catcher with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate. The pitching regulations begin when he intentionally contacts the pitcher’s plate.

The penalty listed in 6-1-1 is for an illegal pitch, which as you know occurs only if the pitcher quick pitches.

I don't see how you can justify calling a balk for this, even under FED.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Have to disagree here, Bob. The infractions penalized for a balk are listed in 6-2-4, and taking signals off the rubber is not listed there.

The relevant rule is 6-1-1, and the relevant sentence is:

The penalty listed in 6-1-1 is for an illegal pitch, which as you know occurs only if the pitcher quick pitches.

I don't see how you can justify calling a balk for this, even under FED.

Read Bob's post again. He very carefully separated the two parts of the move contained in the OP and then describe to different manners in which the first part could be accomplished.

What he is calling a balk by rule, I believe, is a pitcher simulating motions associated with pitch while not in contact with the rubber.

[Steven Tyler]

Has anybody here ever called a balk for this in a FED game?

I thought so.........

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Read Bob's post again. He very carefully separated the two parts of the move contained in the OP and then describe to different manners in which the first part could be accomplished.

What he is calling a balk by rule, I believe, is a pitcher simulating motions associated with pitch while not in contact with the rubber.

Garth: I don't think taking signs is a "movement naturally associated with his pitch." Ordinarily that phrase refers to pitch-like movement (windup, coming set, delivery, etc.). Words have meanings, right?

We all know in OBR this is a "don't do that." Barring authoritative opinion to the contrary (case play, interp, etc.), I see no rationale for it to be anything else in FED.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Garth: I don't think taking signs is a "movement naturally associated with his pitch." Ordinarily that phrase refers to pitch-like movement (windup, coming set, delivery, etc.). Words have meanings, right?

We all know in OBR this is a "don't do that." Barring authoritative opinion to the contrary (case play, interp, etc.), I see no rationale for it to be anything else in FED.

Many people cite the penalty phase for 6-1-1, 6-1-2 and 6-1-3. PENATLY (ART. 1,2,3,): The ball is dead immediately when an illegal pitch occurs. If there is no runner, a ball is awarded the batter. If there is a runner, such illegal act is a balk. In both situations, the umpire signals dead ball.

From article 6-1-1: The pitcher shall pitch while facing the batter from either a windup position (Art. 2) or a set position (Art. 3). The position of his feet determine whether he will pitch from the windup or set position. He shall take his sign from the catcher with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher's plate. The pitching regulations begin when he intentionally contacts the the pitcher's plate.

There is more, but it is not relevant to the situation......

Notice where it says intentionally contacts the rubber. That is when the pitching regulations starts. For practical purposes, the pitcher is considered an infielder until he toes the rubber. If he was to throw the ball into dead ball territory it would be a two base award. So can an infielder balk?

There is more. ART. 6-2-5, It is also a balk if a runner or runners are on base and the pitcher, while he is not touching the pitcher's plate, makes any movement associated with his pitch, or he places his feet on or astride the pitcher's plate, or positions himself within approximately five feet of the pitcher's plate without having the ball.

So is this any movement associated with his pitch?

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Garth: I don't think taking signs is a "movement naturally associated with his pitch." Ordinarily that phrase refers to pitch-like movement (windup, coming set, delivery, etc.). Words have meanings, right?

We're not connecting yet. Bob paints a picture of a pitcher on the mound, then bending over to take his signals all while stradling the rubber.

This is extremely deceptive to a runner who may easily assume that the since the pitcher is getting his signals, he's on the rubber. If this were allowed, the pitcher could then just "fling" the ball without disengaging and without stepping to the bag. This, imo, does qualify as movement naturally associated with a pitch. What are you waiting for...for him to stand up?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Bob paints a picture of a pitcher on the mound, then bending over to take his signals all while stradling the rubber.

This is extremely deceptive to a runner who may easily assume that the since the pitcher is getting his signals, he's on the rubber.

What makes you think most runners know the rule requiring the pitcher to be on the rubber when taking signs? I'll bet Joe Morgan doesn't know . It has been my experience that most players have a very limited grasp on most advanced rules. I would also submit that a runner should be watching the pitcher rather closely to determine whether or not he is on the rubber by looking at his feet, not by whether or not he is taking signs.

I tend to nip taking signs off the rubber in the bud by telling the catcher not to give signs until F1 engages the rubber.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

What makes you think most runners know the rule requiring the pitcher to be on the rubber when taking signs? I'll bet Joe Morgan doesn't know . It has been my experience that most players have a very limited grasp on most advanced rules. I would also submit that a runner should be watching the pitcher rather closely to determine whether or not he is on the rubber by looking at his feet, not by whether or not he is taking signs.

I tend to nip taking signs off the rubber in the bud by telling the catcher not to give signs until F1 engages the rubber.

It's not important if the runner knows the rule, it's important that I do.

I think Bob has painted two distinct scenarios. In the first, the common one, the pitcher is standing upright taking signals while not in contact with the rubber. Simple, fix...don't do that.

The second, I believe is entirely different. The pitcher is leaning forward taking his signals just as he does in his normal pitching procedure. This is different. This is deceptive. This is a balk with runners on in FED.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

When I started the this thread I already knew how I was going to answer the question if it was asked of me. The reason I posted the quesiton is that it was brought up yesterday afternoon in a Fall baseball league for H.S. players. The umpires for this league are assigned by the H.S. umpires association of which I am also a member.

My younger son (freshmen in H.S.) was the starting pitcher in his team's second game of a DH. In the first inning with a runner on first base, my son straddled the pitcher’s plate with the ball in his pitching hand and looked at the runner on first base then looked to his catcher then looked back at the runner at first base and then looked to his catcher. He then engaged the pitcher’s plate with his pivot foot and took his signal from his catcher and then proceeded to pitch to the batter. This is a regimen that he has done since he started pitching. When the inning was over the BU came over to his coach and told him that he could not take signals from his catcher while he was straddling the pitcher’s plate. Since I knew both of the umpires for the DH, I did not say anything about their misapplication of the rules. (I just gave my position away, didn't I.)

As I stated in my original post, NFHS R6-S1-A1 states that: He [the pitcher] shall take his sign from the catcher with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate. Nothing in the rules prohibits a pitcher from taking a signal from the catcher or even looking at the catcher while straddling the pitcher's plate (of course that presumes that the pitcher is holding the ball while straddling the pitcher's plate.

After I made my original post, I remebered that there had been a thread about the pitcher taking signals while not in contact with the pitcher’s plate on the NFHS Officials' Discusion Forum, http://www.nfhs.org/cgi-bin/ultimate...;f=10;t=001034. The thread ran about 50-50 as to whether the pitcher was committing a balk or not. I did not contribute to that thread but I remembered that Jim Thompson (a past member of the NFHS Baseball Rules Committee) posted that the pitcher had not balked. In fact, Jim stated that the pitcher can take a signal from anywhere he likes as long as he takes or simulates taking a signal from the catcher after he has come into contact with the pitcher's plate.

Now here is where I really get to name drop. Jim and I first met seven years ago at an AAU Boys' Baseball National Championship tournament becuase we both are friends of the tournament's UIC. So last night I sent an email to Jim about this situation and Jim called me earlier this evening.

Jim told me that to his knowledge the NFHS's position is that it is not a balk, because it is not prohibited by rule. That is the key to this play. While the pitcher shall take his sign from the catcher while in contact with the pitching plate, it is not prohibited, by rule, for the pitcher to take a sign from the catcher while not in contact with the pitching plate. The key is that the pitching rules do not take effect until the pitcher comes into contact with the pitcher's plate, therefore the important thing is that the pitcher takes or simulates taking a sign from the catcher while in contact with the pitching plate before he starts his pitching motion.

So, the best thing to do is don't go looking for problems where there are none.

MTD, Sr.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mbyron

The relevant rule is 6-1-1, and the relevant sentence is:

The penalty listed in 6-1-1 is for an illegal pitch, which as you know occurs only if the pitcher quick pitches.

Not true in FED. In FED, many acts are illegal pitches (including all violations of 6-1-1, 2, 3), and all illegal pitches are balks if runners are on base.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE=mbyron]Have to disagree here, Bob.

He shall take his sign from the catcher with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate. The pitching regulations begin when he intentionally contacts the pitcher’s plate.

2 separate and distinct sentences

He shall take his sign from the catcher with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate.

Therefore, if F1 is taking "pitching" signs from F2 while his pivot foot is NOT in contact with the Rubber, then it is an illegal act on the part of F1 otherwise why have the rule to begin with.

It is not a "do not do that" rule, however, most umpires will tell F2 to simply "knock it off" but if they continue to do it, then there is a penalty.

Simple example: F1 is straddling the rubber and looking in at F2 where F2 is giving pitching signals ie; to make it simple 1 finger for a fast ball and 2 for a curve ball.

What are you going to call?

If you do nothing and the opposing coach requests time and says "Hey Blue F1 is taking "pitching" signs not in contact with the rubber. How come you are not calling anything.

As mentioned the first time you see this as a FED umpire you are probably going to do preventative umpiring and tell F2 to go talk to F1 or if you notice this as BU get one of the fielder's attention and tell him to instruct F1 to take signs while in contact with the rubber.

However, if F1 does not "heed your advice" the next time he violated the rule then you enforce.

In FED it is not a "Do not do that" rule.

This thread reminds me of the "shoulder turn" balk that FED had until 2 yrs ago or so. many umpires would not call the "shoulder turn" balk.

It's one thing if your HS umpire association as a whole is not going to enforce the rule and it is conveyed to the coaches at the HS meeting but it's quite another for each umpire on his/her own to decide.

Pete Booth

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Have to disagree here, Bob.




2 separate and distinct sentences



Therefore, if F1 is taking "pitching" signs from F2 while his pivot foot is NOT in contact with the Rubber, then it is an illegal act on the part of F1 otherwise why have the rule to begin with.

It is not a "do not do that" rule, however, most umpires will tell F2 to simply "knock it off" but if they continue to do it, then there is a penalty.

Simple example: F1 is straddling the rubber and looking in at F2 where F2 is giving pitching signals ie; to make it simple 1 finger for a fast ball and 2 for a curve ball.

What are you going to call?

If you do nothing and the opposing coach requests time and says "Hey Blue F1 is taking "pitching" signs not in contact with the rubber. How come you are not calling anything.

As mentioned the first time you see this as a FED umpire you are probably going to do preventative umpiring and tell F2 to go talk to F1 or if you notice this as BU get one of the fielder's attention and tell him to instruct F1 to take signs while in contact with the rubber.

However, if F1 does not "heed your advice" the next time he violated the rule then you enforce.

In FED it is not a "Do not do that" rule.

This thread reminds me of the "shoulder turn" balk that FED had until 2 yrs ago or so. many umpires would not call the "shoulder turn" balk.

It's one thing if your HS umpire association as a whole is not going to enforce the rule and it is conveyed to the coaches at the HS meeting but it's quite another for each umpire on his/her own to decide.

Pete Booth

Pete:

I think you are missing the point that Jim Thompson and I are making and that is the NFHS Rules do not prohibit the pitcher from taking signs from the catcher when not in contact with the pitcher's plate, it just states that the pitcher shall take his signals from the catcher while in contact with the pitcher's plate. Requiring the pitcher to take signs or simulate taking signs from the catcher while in contact with the picther's plate is to prevent a quick pitch. If the picher takes signs while not in contact with the picther's plate is NOT a "stop doing that" because the rules do not prohibit the pitcher from doing it. If the pitcher engages the pitcher's plate and DOES NOT take or simulate taking signs from the cather, then the pitcher has indeed committed a balk.

It is a situation that requires the umpires to not go looking for a problem when no problem exists.

And when the offensive coach requests time to tell me that the pitcher was taking signs from the catcher while not in contact the pitcher's plate I will tell him that the pitcher has not done anything illegal.

MTD, Sr.

[MD Longhorn]

Why do we have this argument every 6 weeks or so? It's nuts.

The law says you must stop at a stop sign before proceeding.

It's not illegal to stop 10 feet before the stop sign, as long as you still stop AT the stop sign.

It's not illegal to take signs from behind the rubber, beside the rubber, or freaking third base, as long as you abide by the rule that says you have to take them (read: appear to take them) while on the rubber. EVERY clinic I've ever gone to has covered this. And most of you guys who claim this "nothing" act is illegal have been to plenty. I'm REALLY surprised this is even an issue ... yet it becomes one every couple of months.

[BigUmp56]

I understand where Garth is coming from and agree with him. If I see a pitcher straddle the rubber and then lean in as if to take signs, I'm balking him for simulating a preliminary motion to pitch without being on the rubber.


Tim.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

I understand where Garth is coming from and agree with him. If I see a pitcher straddle the rubber and then lean in as if to take signs, I'm balking him for simulating a preliminary motion to pitch without being on the rubber.


Tim.

Tim:

Under what NFHS Baseball rule would you use to justify your balk call. I just read Rule 6 and nothing in the rules prevents the pitcher from staddling the pitcher's plate and look in to the catcher as long as he is holding the ball in either his pitching hand or his glove.

MTD, Sr.