That's a balk (video)

[fitump56]

This is exactly the reason that there needs to be a complete revamping of how we treat LHP in the first place. No RHP gets anywhere near this leeway/cheating of the rules.

[ManInBlue]

Originally Posted by fitump56

This is exactly the reason that there needs to be a complete revamping of how we treat LHP in the first place. No RHP gets anywhere near this leeway/cheating of the rules.

A RHP can't physically do what a LHP can do on a move to 1B. That's why you don't see "leeway." No need to revamp rules. They just need to be enforced more consistantly, some of which is very hard to do with a 2-man crew.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by fitump56
This is exactly the reason that there needs to be a complete revamping of how we treat LHP in the first place. No RHP gets anywhere near this leeway/cheating of the rules.

Originally Posted by ManInBlue

A RHP can't physically do what a LHP can do on a move to 1B. That's why you don't see "leeway." No need to revamp rules. They just need to be enforced more consistantly, some of which is very hard to do with a 2-man crew.

I thought it was obvious that I was comparing moves to the bag that a P faces. Guess not.

Like the old-to-new strike zone, this rule needs to be enforced equally for RHP and LHP.

[ManInBlue]

Originally Posted by fitump56

Originally Posted by fitump56
This is exactly the reason that there needs to be a complete revamping of how we treat LHP in the first place. No RHP gets anywhere near this leeway/cheating of the rules.

I thought it was obvious that I was comparing moves to the bag that a P faces. Guess not.

Like the old-to-new strike zone, this rule needs to be enforced equally for RHP and LHP.

Missed that - my bad.

But on that note - RHP faces 3B - he isn't required to throw to 3B. The rules are completely different for 1B and 3B. I understand you are talking about the direction of the step, gaining distance and direction, etc

But I don't understand what revamping you suggest, as the rules are very different for the different bases (regardless of handedness of the pitcher)

Please explain

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by ManInBlue

Missed that - my bad.

But on that note - RHP faces 3B - he isn't required to throw to 3B. The rules are completely different for 1B and 3B. I understand you are talking about the direction of the step, gaining distance and direction, etc

But I don't understand what revamping you suggest, as the rules are very different for the different bases (regardless of handedness of the pitcher)

Please explain

I am for equality in rules treatment when a throw is made by P regardless of (L)(R)HP. There is no reason that makes any sense why we umpire this way.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by ManInBlue

A RHP can't physically do what a LHP can do on a move to 1B. That's why you don't see "leeway." No need to revamp rules. They just need to be enforced more consistantly, some of which is very hard to do with a 2-man crew.

A RHP can do what a lefty does, except he does it toward 3rd base, as opposed to first. The identical move!

The difference is that a move toward 1st is more common and more useful. Pickoff attempts at 3rd are very rare.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[ManInBlue]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

A RHP can do what a lefty does, except he can does it toward 3rd base, as opposed to first. The identical move!

The difference is that a move toward 1st is more common and more useful. Pickoff attempts at 3rd are very rare.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

After reading your post, I remembered having a coach argue the direction of the foot when a RHP stepped to 3B. (identical to the argument we all have on LHP). I'm not sure why it didn't come to me sooner.

I'd contend that the move, if illegal, doesn't get called when RHP doesn't throw to 3B, just the step and feint. And many of those steps are immediately followed by a turn to 1B. One may not notice "distance and direction" as easily when he makes so much movement. I'd like to think that on tha actual pick off attempt at 3B it would be called the same as LHP to 1B. But in reality, they probably have more leeway than LHP for the fact that you pointed out, it's not seen as often. What I mean is that we are looking all the time for an illegal move to 1B by LHP. We simply watch the move of the RHP to 3B, and when something illegal jumps out, we call it.

[jicecone]

The hardest part about the left hander is the judgement of gaining distance toward first base on that type of move. In two man system the BU is almost always stuck with the inability of not being able to watch the complete step and still follow the ball to the bag for a possible tag. This is where the PU also has to be on his toes and looking for the step towards the bag.

With a BU behind First, at least he can tell if the leg is going more towards home then first however, it is still tough to totally see if the leg is gaining distance. Again the PU or a BU at second can make this call.

There is also the discussion about gaining distance and landing the foot at a place that is greater than a 45 deg. angle from the Pitching plate. Anything past the line is toward first and before the line is toward home plate.

Others feel that any apppreciable distance also satisfies the rules.

I don't know the answer but, one thing for sure, be prepared with a lefty on the mound and a R1, because when you miss it the first time, it will be hard to establish a good precedent from thereon.

To me it is one of the tougher judgement calls we have to make out there.

I am still open to suggestions.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by ManInBlue

After reading your post, I remembered having a coach argue the direction of the foot when a RHP stepped to 3B. (identical to the argument we all have on LHP). I'm not sure why it didn't come to me sooner.

I'd contend that the move, if illegal, doesn't get called when RHP doesn't throw to 3B, just the step and feint. And many of those steps are immediately followed by a turn to 1B. One may not notice "distance and direction" as easily when he makes so much movement. I'd like to think that on tha actual pick off attempt at 3B it would be called the same as LHP to 1B. But in reality, they probably have more leeway than LHP for the fact that you pointed out, it's not seen as often. What I mean is that we are looking all the time for an illegal move to 1B by LHP. We simply watch the move of the RHP to 3B, and when something illegal jumps out, we call it.

IME I havne't seen very many RHP who "test" the rules by landind as far as the LHP in the video. Any ump worth his salt is going to balk that RHP again IME so it is commonly known and not taught to try to take such advantage. A balk here costs a run, at 1B it's an advancement and in small ball, where stealing 2B is more common than not, not much is lost.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by ManInBlue

I'd contend that the move, if illegal, doesn't get called when RHP doesn't throw to 3B, just the step and feint. And many of those steps are immediately followed by a turn to 1B. One may not notice "distance and direction" as easily when he makes so much movement. I'd like to think that on tha actual pick off attempt at 3B it would be called the same as LHP to 1B. But in reality, they probably have more leeway than LHP for the fact that you pointed out, it's not seen as often. What I mean is that we are looking all the time for an illegal move to 1B by LHP. We simply watch the move of the RHP to 3B, and when something illegal jumps out, we call it.

Many left-handers employ a technique of masking the placement of their free foot by immediately walking away after making the throw. They do not pose.

In the video, you will notice David Price does this. Most LHP's with a "marginal" move will do this. They usual continue walking toward 1st after making the throw.

Frequently the umpires are as surprised by the pickoff as the runner. The umpires look back at the pitcher, to check on the placement of his free foot, and the evidence is already long gone. So - since they didn't see it - they resign themselves that they'll just have to look closer next time.

Of course, if the umpire is specifically looking for the placement of the free foot ... if he's focusing on it ... the pitcher is screwed if, in fact, he is going beyond the 45-degree line.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[ManInBlue]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

Many left-handers employ a technique of masking the placement of their free foot by immediately walking away after making the throw. They do not pose.

In the video, you will notice David Price does this. Most LHP's with a "marginal" move will do this. They usual continue walking toward 1st after making the throw.

Frequently the umpires are as surprised by the pickoff as the runner. The umpires look back at the pitcher, to check on the placement of his free foot, and the evidence is already long gone. So - since they didn't see it - they resign themselves that they'll just have to look closer next time.

Of course, if the umpire is specifically looking for the placement of the free foot ... if he's focusing on it ... the pitcher is screwed if, in fact, he is going beyond the 45-degree line.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Very good point.

There is one time in particular that come to mind that I would have been picked off had I been the runner. (Adult league) LHP had an increbile move to 1B - I called R1 safe (I think I missed it due to my own surprise) - but became very aware of where F1 placed his foot. He tried it again, and I balked him. Of course he went ballistic saying that I can't call that in a two man, I can't see it. His foot was not far from where he landed when going home - it was rather obviuos.

Do you do college ball, David? If so, are you a member of the Memphis org?

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by ManInBlue

... He tried it again, and I balked him. Of course he went ballistic saying that I can't call that in a two man, I can't see it. His foot was not far from where he landed when going home - it was rather obviuos.

The fact that the pitcher is telling you what you can and can't see in a "two man" indicates that he is violating the rule and is relying on the "fact" that it can't be verified. A silly argument.

Do you do college ball, David? If so, are you a member of the Memphis org?

I've only called a few college games in my "career" - all of which were junior colleges. No big time teams. I don't have the time for that. Too much traveling. My real job precludes that kind of commitment.

Most of my experience is at the high school varsity level. And, quite frankly, the better high school teams in this area could have easily defeated the junior college teams that I saw.

This area is a hotbed of high school baseball talent. The state champion usually comes from the west Tennessee area and many of the players get Div I scholarships to big schools, some of whom are drafted directly into professional baseball. Baseball talent here is more recognized than football, which is rather atypical for the south.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by ManInBlue

(Adult league) LHP had an increbile move to 1B - I called R1 safe (I think I missed it due to my own surprise) - but became very aware of where F1 placed his foot. He tried it again, and I balked him. Of course he went ballistic saying that I can't call that in a two man, I can't see it.

"That's a balk for the rest of this game." Nothing else needs to be said, you don't have to justify your eyesight or angle. God, I love callin' these MSBLers.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

A RHP can do what a lefty does, except he can does it toward 3rd base, as opposed to first. The identical move!

The difference is that a move toward 1st is more common and more useful. Pickoff attempts at 3rd are very rare.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

He can do it but IME a RHP rarely gets the leeway of non pivot foot landings significantly toward home as the LHP does, not even close.