Another Einstein in the 3B coach's box

[aceholleran]

Geniuses abound in this wonderful game. Even in a state championship small-ball game.

This particular Dumbledore watched as I called delayed OBS on F5, contacting R2 on his arrival at 3B. F6 was just receiving the rock not far from 2B.

Genius: "UMP! HE GETS HOME! HE GETS HOME!!"

Like most of us, I eschew palaver whilst the ball is alive. F6 is also contemplating picking R3 off 3B, which he has rounded. I silently decide that I'm not going to protect R3 anywhere. He has paused too much for a legitimate chance at scoring; the OBS has come and gone; no one is blocking his return to 3B. I pray to St. Nestor Chylak for F6 to play on R3 ... and then tension convention that would ensue. Alas, this was not to be.

Finally, ball goes back to F1, R3 retreats safely to 3B, and PU calls time to do some housekeeping.

Genius: "But you called obstruction!"

Me: "That is correct."

Genius: "He gets the base he's going to, plus one, so he scores."

Me: "That is incorrect."

Inning ends soon thereafter, with R3 mired at 3B. Our budding Stengel is not happy, nor is he truculent.

I stroll back to his dugout with him, giving a pithy explanation of delayed OBS; no mandatory award, etc. [FWIW, LL=OBR rules here]. I ended with, "Plus, if I were going to award him anything, I would have called 'time.'"

Here's what I got back, "But why didn't you answer me when I asked you a question?"

I think I retorted with a mini-gem: "Coach, the ball was alive. I didn't want to get into a conversation with you so that you could better counsel your player." That's what I said. Harrumph.

Curiouser and curiouser,

Ace

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by aceholleran

Geniuses abound in this wonderful game. Even in a state championship small-ball game.

This particular Dumbledore watched as I called delayed OBS on F5, contacting R2 on his arrival at 3B. F6 was just receiving the rock not far from 2B.

Genius: "UMP! HE GETS HOME! HE GETS HOME!!"
Like most of us, I eschew palaver whilst the ball is alive. F6 is also contemplating picking R3 off 3B, which he has rounded. I silently decide that I'm not going to protect R3 anywhere. He has paused too much for a legitimate chance at scoring; the OBS has come and gone; no one is blocking his return to 3B. I pray to St. Nestor Chylak for F6 to play on R3 ... and then tension convention that would ensue. Alas, this was not to be.

If F6 has the ball, or is about to get the ball at the time F5 obstructs and I go to the trouble of calling it, I think I would protect R2 back to 3rd no matter. I certainly wouldn't be praying for a pickoff at 3rd after I've called OBS. You knew when you called OBS R2 wasn't scoring, now you weren't even going to protect him back to 3rd. What was the point?
However, if there was some reason I wanted the coach out of the game, then that is exactly what I'd do.

Originally Posted by aceholleran

finally, ball goes back to F1, R3 retreats safely to 3B, and PU calls time to do some housekeeping.

Genius: "But you called obstruction!"

Me: "That is correct."

Genius: "He gets the base he's going to, plus one, so he scores."

Me: "That is incorrect."

Inning ends soon thereafter, with R3 mired at 3B. Our budding Stengel is not happy, nor is he truculent.

I stroll back to his dugout with him, giving a pithy explanation of delayed OBS; no mandatory award, etc. [FWIW, LL=OBR rules here]. I ended with, "Plus, if I were going to award him anything, I would have called 'time.'"

Here's what I got back, "But why didn't you answer me when I asked you a question?"

I think I retorted with a mini-gem: "Coach, the ball was alive. I didn't want to get into a conversation with you so that you could better counsel your player." That's what I said. Harrumph.

Curiouser and curiouser,

Ace

Personally I would never stroll back to the dugout with the coach.
Inning ends (2 man) I'm beelining for RF. My pithy comments are best saved for postgame over a beer with my P.

Live ball or dead ball I have no desire to converse with the coach.

[Blue37]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

If F6 has the ball, or is about to get the ball at the time F5 obstructs and I go to the trouble of calling it, I think I would protect R2 back to 3rd no matter. .....You knew when you called OBS R2 wasn't scoring, now you weren't even going to protect him back to 3rd. What was the point?

Don,

Rule 7.06(b) Comment: "Under 7.06(b) when the ball is not dead on obstruction and an obstructed runner advances beyond the base which, in the umpire’s judgment, he would have been awarded because of being obstructed, he does so at his own peril and may be tagged out. This is a judgment call."

The decision was made to protect him to 3rd. He rounded third. Where is his protection back to 3rd?

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by Blue37

Don,

Rule 7.06(b) Comment: "Under 7.06(b) when the ball is not dead on obstruction and an obstructed runner advances beyond the base which, in the umpire’s judgment, he would have been awarded because of being obstructed, he does so at his own peril and may be tagged out. This is a judgment call."

The decision was made to protect him to 3rd. He rounded third. Where is his protection back to 3rd?

Blue,
I understand the rule and you are 100% correct.
I wasn't there but here's the pic I have in my head. R2 is no more than 5' from bag when obstructed. F5 didn't tackle him, was just standing in the wrong spot. F6 was just getting ball near 2nd. There was no issue as to whether R2 was going to get to 3rd and there was no way R2 could get home. In small ball OBR I don't even call it. But if I did and had no intention of awarding home, I'm sure as heck not going to allow the pick
at 3rd. Not because the rule supports me, but because I screwed up and I'm not about to create the S$$$ storm that would follow. I'd award home before I take that out.

It's kind of like the curve ball in the dirt. There are times I swear the ball catches the strike zone but I don't call the strike, even though by rule I saw a strike.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

If F6 has the ball, or is about to get the ball at the time F5 obstructs and I go to the trouble of calling it, I think I would protect R2 back to 3rd no matter. I certainly wouldn't be praying for a pickoff at 3rd after I've called OBS. You knew when you called OBS R2 wasn't scoring, now you weren't even going to protect him back to 3rd. What was the point?

From the OP

This particular Dumbledore watched as I called delayed OBS on F5, contacting R2 on his arrival at 3B.

At this point we protect R2 to third base, however,

R2 acquired third base so his protection ends, therefore, why would you protect him back to third? R2 now R3 was not obstructed going back to the bag he was obstructed while going TO THE bag.

Runners do not get "carte blanch" on OBS.

Pete Booth

[Jim Porter]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]

From the OP



At this point we protect R2 to third base, however,

R2 acquired third base so his protection ends, therefore, why would you protect him back to third? R2 now R3 was not obstructed going back to the bag he was obstructed while going TO THE bag.

Runners do not get "carte blanch" on OBS.

Pete Booth

Certainly if he reached his, "protected to," base and attempts -- on his own -- to advance to home, then you can certainly end his protection if the circumstances warrant. But when an obstructed runner simply rounds his, "protected to," base -- something runners will quite often do during Type B obstruction -- why would you end his protection? Rounding a base isn't, "carte blanche," it's a pretty normal runner activity. If a runner rounds a base and gets thrown out scrambling back, very often the obstruction has had an effect on the play that requires nullification.

Only the long pause by the runner in the original play constitutes post-obstruction evidence possibly giving us the option to end his protection.

[Don Mueller]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]

From the OP



At this point we protect R2 to third base, however,

R2 acquired third base so his protection ends, therefore, why would you protect him back to third? R2 now R3 was not obstructed going back to the bag he was obstructed while going TO THE bag.

Runners do not get "carte blanch" on OBS.

Pete Booth

Pete

I think you're missing my point. Read the way I'm picturing this play in post 4.
In small ball OBR I wouldn't call OBS in the first place. BUT IF I DID
I wouldn't compound my mistake by allowing the out at 3rd and enduring the s%## storm that's sure to follow.

1. I know he's getting to 3rd without my help.
2. The OP said he wasn't awarding home

Under these circumstances absolutely no good can come from this call.

The only result from calling OBS is getting an earfull, which is exactly what happened and if the kid then gets picked at 3rd it's going to escalate ten fold.

I'm not arguing the correct interp of the rule. I'm only saying what I would do if I found myself in this situation.

If the kid was far enough off third to get picked and paused long enough for protection to cease I can make a case that if he hadn't been obstructed he would have made it home.
As I said before, I'd award home before I'd take the out. But since the OP said he wasn't awarding home I spoke to that and said I'd protect him back to 3rd.

[waltjp]

The runner is protected into third base only. If you give him any more than that you're making up your own set of rules.

[aceholleran]

The reason for my post was to show the humor of the sitch + how coaches don't know rules.

R2 was inches from 3B when he was obstructed. He may have even touched it during/before the OBS. It being small ball, and judging where F6 was with the ball, I MAY have protected R2 to home, if he had kept going in a continuous effort.

There was absolutely no way defense could have thrown out R2 as he reached third, so he didn't need protection into the base. It is a salient point that I could have protected R2 back INTO third. YHTBT.

In calling delayed OBS, we umps often need subsequent cues from players on both teams to see to which base we are going to protect the runner.

And sometimes, the off ump, particuarly PU, must make this award if the final play is made at the dish.

And at this level of ball, I'll take two sentences between innings to elucidate a rule for a civil coach; then I hightail it out to LF.

Ace

[bob jenkins]

The play is similar to teh Cubs play a few weeks ago that was discussed in depth on this and other sites (in the Cubs play, R1 was obstructed going into second, advanced about 2/3 of the way to third, then was tagged out returning to second; the out was negated after a discussion amongst the umpires.

I haven't seen anything to indicate whether the umpires got it right, upon review (not Instant review) by the league.

[fitump56]

[quote=Jim Porter]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Certainly if he reached his, "protected to," base and attempts -- on his own -- to advance to home, then you can certainly end his protection if the circumstances warrant. But when an obstructed runner simply rounds his, "protected to," base -- something runners will quite often do during Type B obstruction -- why would you end his protection? Rounding a base isn't, "carte blanche," it's a pretty normal runner activity. If a runner rounds a base and gets thrown out scrambling back, very often the obstruction has had an effect on the play that requires nullification.

Only the long pause by the runner in the original play constitutes post-obstruction evidence possibly giving us the option to end his protection.

Clear thinking, Jim, OBS can have multitude of implications, advanced officiating would take all possible circumstances into account.

[bluezebra]

"He gets the base he's going to, plus one, so he scores."

Coach, one-plus-one is a basketball term. We're playing baseball here.

Bob

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by aceholleran

R2 was inches from 3B when he was obstructed. He may have even touched it during/before the OBS. It being small ball, and judging where F6 was with the ball, I MAY have protected R2 to home, if he had kept going in a continuous effort.

There was absolutely no way defense could have thrown out R2 as he reached third, so he didn't need protection into the base. It is a salient point that I could have protected R2 back INTO third. YHTBT.

I read the initial post with your intent in mind, and discarded the details on the OBS.

However, the more you elucidate, the more it sounds like you're missing some of the important facets of the OBS rule.

First ... there's no "MAY have protected" nonsense - either you would have or you wouldn't have. If you truly WOULD HAVE protected R2 to home had he kept going, then by rule your award SHOULD HAVE simply been home. There are no cases where you would protect a runner to a particular base ... and then not award that base on the basis that he didn't attempt to reach that particular base. What you've basically done here is given the defense an advantage due to the OBS - saying that since he stumbled or slowed due to the OBS and didn't attempt the base you were protecting to, he no longer gets the base. This is hard enough to teach out of newbies. I certainly didn't expect such logic from you.

Second ... it's your JOB to determine whether the OBS occurred before or after the base. If you're protecting him BACK to third, you've ruled that the OBS occurred after third, and you HAVE to protect him to home and award him home. This is not ASA softball, where the option protect between bases and award the prior base exists.

[aceholleran]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

However, the more you elucidate, the more it sounds like you're missing some of the important facets of the OBS rule.

First ... there's no "MAY have protected" nonsense - either you would have or you wouldn't have. [snip] This is hard enough to teach out of newbies. I certainly didn't expect such logic from you.

I politely disagree with your interp of 7.06(b) here.

Ace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by aceholleran

I politely disagree with your interp of 7.06(b) here.

Ace

7.06b: "If no play is being made on the obstructed runner, the play shall proceed until no further action is possible. The umpire shall then call “Time” and impose such penalties, if any, as in his judgment will nullify the act of obstruction"

I don't read where this says that you can rule obstruction and not know what base you're protecting him to. If you felt the obstruction prevented the runner from scoring, you score him. If you didn't, you don't. You can't decide he's protected home, and then not score him because he didn't try. And you surely can't rule that you "might have protected him".