Another Einstein in the 3B coach's box

[RPatrino]

MBcrowder, the rule is plainly written. It clearly states, 'impose such penalties, IF ANY, that in his judgement will nullify the act of obstruction'. You may call obstruction and have NO penalty, thus no protection at all of the runner.

Here's a sitch that happened to me several years ago. A speedy runner, running from 2b on a gapper, is knocked down by the F6 between 2nd and 3rd. In my judgement, he is fast enough to score on the play, absent the obstruction. As the play unfolds the 3rd base coach give the runner a late stop sign, and he slips and falls about 6 feet past 3rd. A backdoor play gets him on his slide back into 3rd. What's your call?

[NFump]

Time! That's obstruction!(Pointing at F6) You, (pointing to R3) home!

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

7.06b: "If no play is being made on the obstructed runner, the play shall proceed until no further action is possible. The umpire shall then call “Time” and impose such penalties, if any, as in his judgment will nullify the act of obstruction"

I don't read where this says that you can rule obstruction and not know what base you're protecting him to. If you felt the obstruction prevented the runner from scoring, you score him. If you didn't, you don't. You can't decide he's protected home, and then not score him because he didn't try. And you surely can't rule that you "might have protected him".

Didn't this happen in the world series or LCS a few years ago? R2 obstructed approaching / rounding third, thinks he's going to be awarded home, slows down and is thrown out by 20'? The out stood.

I (generally at least) agree with Ace's interp of this play.

[UmpLarryJohnson]

at what pt does runner intentt come in? like if you think 'he woulda scored but fr the interferance", and hes still between 2 and 3-- you dont KNOW he woulda tried for home.

if he DOES that makes it easysleezy but in the "dvingback" case you dont know that.

[Forest Ump]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

Here's a sitch that happened to me several years ago. A speedy runner, running from 2b on a gapper, is knocked down by the F6 between 2nd and 3rd. In my judgement, he is fast enough to score on the play, absent the obstruction. As the play unfolds the 3rd base coach give the runner a late stop sign, and he slips and falls about 6 feet past 3rd. A backdoor play gets him on his slide back into 3rd. What's your call?

HTBT, but I would have Obstruction, type B on F6. Delayed dead ball. After the smoke cleared I would call time and award the runner home. The coach giving the stop sign would not be taken into consideration. Then I would get ready for the ensuing ejection.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

7.06b: "If no play is being made on the obstructed runner, the play shall proceed until no further action is possible. The umpire shall then call “Time” and impose such penalties, if any, as in his judgment will nullify the act of obstruction"

I don't read where this says that you can rule obstruction and not know what base you're protecting him to. If you felt the obstruction prevented the runner from scoring, you score him. If you didn't, you don't. You can't decide he's protected home, and then not score him because he didn't try. And you surely can't rule that you "might have protected him".

It's called post-obstruction evidence. It's done all the time. Maybe Mr. Porter has more detail than me -- 'sides, I'm out the door. Working a Little League Senior Regional this year and I have to hit the road.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

MBcrowder, the rule is plainly written. It clearly states, 'impose such penalties, IF ANY, that in his judgement will nullify the act of obstruction'. You may call obstruction and have NO penalty, thus no protection at all of the runner.

Yes, but it does not say that you can rule obstruction and not know whether you would award a particular base. Altering the award based on post-obstruction evidence should NEVER include actions by the runner that were altered because of the OBS. They CAN include subsequent overthrows, etc. But if you thought he would score at the moment he's obstructed, you can't penalize him for changing his mind about trying to score because he's no longer as far along the basepath - a situation CAUSED by the obstruction itself.

Here's a sitch that happened to me several years ago. A speedy runner, running from 2b on a gapper, is knocked down by the F6 between 2nd and 3rd. In my judgement, he is fast enough to score on the play, absent the obstruction. As the play unfolds the 3rd base coach give the runner a late stop sign, and he slips and falls about 6 feet past 3rd. A backdoor play gets him on his slide back into 3rd. What's your call?

Easy. Send him home. What would have happened without the OBS? Had he not been knocked down, he wouldn't have gotten the stop sign. Had he not been knocked down, he wouldn't have slipped trying to stop. This one is a VERY easy and proper award of home. You said it all when you said, "In my judgement he is fast enough to score on the play." Enough said. Everything else happened BECAUSE OF the obstruction, and it's our job to nullify the OBS.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Didn't this happen in the world series or LCS a few years ago? R2 obstructed approaching / rounding third, thinks he's going to be awarded home, slows down and is thrown out by 20'? The out stood.

I (generally at least) agree with Ace's interp of this play.

My main concern with Ace's description of his interp is the "Might have awarded him..." part. Either he would, or he wouldn't have scored absent the OBS. It's our job to make that determination, and after the play, make whatever award we need to to nullify the obstruction. You can't have a "might" at this point, and the "post OBS evidence" of the runner, who's position on the field is no longer what it would have been, running the bases differently because of the OBS (not because of the OBS CALL - as in Bob's sitch ... but because the ACT of the obstruction), does not apply in this case.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

But if you thought he would score at the moment he's obstructed,

How can you make that determination without further evidence?

Example; R2 base hit to right field.

R2 is obstructed by F6

Let's freeze

At this EXACT moment where are you protecting R2 to?

Answer: Do not know until we see further evidence.

What we do know at least in FED/NCAA is that R2 at the very minimum is getting third base and most likely the same in OBR.

Now let's continue, R2 rounds third base and now heads for home where he is

1. Out by 10 ft. or

2. out by a whisker

What's your ruling?

In 1 absent the OBS R2 would have been out anyway therefore, the out stands.

In 2, absent the OBS R2 would have easily scored hence we award home.

In OBS Type B we do not make awards "right away". We allow the play to completion and THEN after playing action ends we award which bases if any the runner would have achieved absent the OBS.

If it's Type "A" then the award is made "right away"

Pete Booth

[UmpLarryJohnson]

EXACTLY Mr booth is asking what im geting at, thanks

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

MBcrowder, the rule is plainly written. It clearly states, 'impose such penalties, IF ANY, that in his judgement will nullify the act of obstruction'.

I broadly interpret this in favor O.

[aceholleran]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]

How can you make that determination without further evidence?

Pete Booth

Thank you, Pete. You have better crystallized what I've been trying to say.

Ace