3 Mechanics Question

[bossman72]

2 Man:

1) Is there any situation in which the BU in the B or C position to start the play would rotate to home plate?

2) R1, R3. R1 gets in a rundown btw 1st and 2nd. PU stays home because of R3. If the defense throws to 3rd to make a play on R3 either before R1 is tagged out or right after R1 is tagged out, this would also be the BU's call, correct?

3) R1, single, PU rotates to third, overthrow on the play at 3rd and the ball is getting close to the out of play chalk (or imaginary) line, which is a good distance away from the base, but has a chance of staying in play. The PU has to rotate back down to home for the play there, but does he also have the call on the ball rolling out of play? What's the best technique to accurately judge this when you're trying to bust your ace back to home? You can't necessarily turn and run since you have to watch the ball at the out of play line, but watching the ball will slow you down to get back to home. What do you guys do in this situation?


Thanks

[Rcichon]

1): PU got hit in the head by the bat, is knocked out and there's a play there.
2): Yes.
3): Why do you absolve BU from covering this?

BU should cover this all the way to 3 unless he went out for a trouble fly that went uncaught.

If your partner is hustling, then he will have your back at Home.

[ManInBlue]

Originally Posted by bossman72

2 Man:

1) Is there any situation in which the BU in the B or C position to start the play would rotate to home plate?

Sure, plenty of them. First that comes to mind - R2, fly ball to F9, PU goes to 3B ("I've got 3rd if he tags") - BU rolls home in case there is an errant throw - needs to wait for R2 to commit to 3rd before leaving though.

edit to add - Rich posted before I got through typing - He's right - normally there is no need for PU to cover 3B and BU to go home. But if PU hustles and gets up the line to help or just because then ... there are plenty of times the PU can go up 3BL to help out - that's when BU needs to roll home, unless you have a trailing runner that you are responsible for.

2) R1, R3. R1 gets in a rundown btw 1st and 2nd. PU stays home because of R3. If the defense throws to 3rd to make a play on R3 either before R1 is tagged out or right after R1 is tagged out, this would also be the BU's call, correct?

Yep - unless BU is able to position himself to make that call (and let you know he's got it) AND still be able to be in position to get home for that play. Best bet...That's why your called the Field or Base umpire - you better get it.

3) R1, single, PU rotates to third, overthrow on the play at 3rd and the ball is getting close to the out of play chalk (or imaginary) line, which is a good distance away from the base, but has a chance of staying in play. The PU has to rotate back down to home for the play there, but does he also have the call on the ball rolling out of play? What's the best technique to accurately judge this when you're trying to bust your ace back to home? You can't necessarily turn and run since you have to watch the ball at the out of play line, but watching the ball will slow you down to get back to home. What do you guys do in this situation?

Sounds like they better be kicking their horses. PU has got to see the ball - the ball is ALWAYS you first responsibility - so he needs to get into position to get home as the throw is coming and still see the ball clearly - or BU better let him know he's at home (and then PU has to wake up to possibly get to 3B or 2B)

I'm sure I'll take some heat for these answers - that's OK - I'm curious what others say anyway.

[Publius]

Originally Posted by bossman72

2 Man:

1) Is there any situation in which the BU in the B or C position to start the play would rotate to home plate?

2) R1, R3. R1 gets in a rundown btw 1st and 2nd. PU stays home because of R3. If the defense throws to 3rd to make a play on R3 either before R1 is tagged out or right after R1 is tagged out, this would also be the BU's call, correct?

3) R1, single, PU rotates to third, overthrow on the play at 3rd and the ball is getting close to the out of play chalk (or imaginary) line, which is a good distance away from the base, but has a chance of staying in play. The PU has to rotate back down to home for the play there, but does he also have the call on the ball rolling out of play? What's the best technique to accurately judge this when you're trying to bust your ace back to home? You can't necessarily turn and run since you have to watch the ball at the out of play line, but watching the ball will slow you down to get back to home. What do you guys do in this situation?


Thanks

1. Not in a standard rotation. If the PU f(ouls) up or is injured, BU must cover for him.

2. It depends. The PU moves halfway toward third in foul ground when R1 is caught. If there is a play at third before the PU moves into position to take control of R3 in a rundown, that is the BU's call, either before or after R1 is out. Once the PU has moved into position to take control, R3 is all his at both third and home if R1 is not out; if R1 is out, R3 is the PU's responsibility until BU gets to third to help; then (unlike between 1st and 2nd, or 2nd and 3rd) they split the basepath 50/50.

3. Rcichon, re-read this situation; I think you're treating it as if it started bases empty. With R1 advancing to 3rd, the B/R is the BU's responsibility. In this situation as PU, I bust toward home while watching the ball. As it gets near the dead-ball area, I STOP and look as best I can. If it goes into DBT, no problem. If not, make sure defense controls the ball (they might pick it up, then drop it into DBT, altering the base awards) and read the throw while continuing to move toward home. If the throw goes home, at that point I stop my advance there and instead move toward the top of the circle. This gets me a pretty good angle. When the throw passes you, stop and set.

If the errant throw stays live and the throw goes to 2nd, watch the touch of home by R1 and be ready for any subsequent play at the plate if more wild throws occur. B/R is now all BU's at 1st, 2nd and 3rd.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by ManInBlue

Sure, plenty of them. First that comes to mind - R2, fly ball to F9, PU goes to 3B ("I've got 3rd if he tags") - BU rolls home in case there is an errant throw - needs to wait for R2 to commit to 3rd before leaving though.

On a fly ball to F9, why isn't the BU lining up the tag, then taking the runner to third, setting up an angle to the play near the cut? That is the mechanic I was always taught. The PU doesn't cover third with R2 only, just when R1 and R2. The BU has to get around. That's why they call him the "base" umpire.

We were taught to set up near the grass line midway between 2nd and 3rd, see the catch, drop step with the right foot, pivot around with the left leg, get an angle by moving toward the 3rd base line, watch the throw over our right shoulder, and take the runner into 3rd base if there is a throw. This mechanic frees up the PU to get a good look at fair/foul in case the ball is near the line.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by ManInBlue

Sure, plenty of them. First that comes to mind - R2, fly ball to F9, PU goes to 3B ("I've got 3rd if he tags") - BU rolls home in case there is an errant throw - needs to wait for R2 to commit to 3rd before leaving though.

You're kidding, right? PU covers R2 "if he tags" when there is an R1. Even then, PU hustles home to cover play at the plate. BU does not cover home when starting in B or C.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by bossman72

2 Man:

1) Is there any situation in which the BU in the B or C position to start the play would rotate to home plate?

Not under any standard mechanics. Some (usually youth) organizations might change this.

2) R1, R3. R1 gets in a rundown btw 1st and 2nd. PU stays home because of R3. If the defense throws to 3rd to make a play on R3 either before R1 is tagged out or right after R1 is tagged out, this would also be the BU's call, correct?

Correct.

3) R1, single, PU rotates to third, overthrow on the play at 3rd and the ball is getting close to the out of play chalk (or imaginary) line, which is a good distance away from the base, but has a chance of staying in play. The PU has to rotate back down to home for the play there, but does he also have the call on the ball rolling out of play? What's the best technique to accurately judge this when you're trying to bust your ace back to home? You can't necessarily turn and run since you have to watch the ball at the out of play line, but watching the ball will slow you down to get back to home. What do you guys do in this situation?

PU gets it the best he can. BU will also be watching the ball and can help out on the OOP call.

[ChucktownBlue]

Originally Posted by ManInBlue

Sure, plenty of them. First that comes to mind - R2, fly ball to F9, PU goes to 3B ("I've got 3rd if he tags") - BU rolls home in case there is an errant throw - needs to wait for R2 to commit to 3rd before leaving though.

edit to add - Rich posted before I got through typing - He's right - normally there is no need for PU to cover 3B and BU to go home. But if PU hustles and gets up the line to help or just because then ... there are plenty of times the PU can go up 3BL to help out - that's when BU needs to roll home, unless you have a trailing runner that you are responsible for.



Yep - unless BU is able to position himself to make that call (and let you know he's got it) AND still be able to be in position to get home for that play. Best bet...That's why your called the Field or Base umpire - you better get it.



Sounds like they better be kicking their horses. PU has got to see the ball - the ball is ALWAYS you first responsibility - so he needs to get into position to get home as the throw is coming and still see the ball clearly - or BU better let him know he's at home (and then PU has to wake up to possibly get to 3B or 2B)

I'm sure I'll take some heat for these answers - that's OK - I'm curious what others say anyway.

BU going home in two man????

Realizing how much bad information is passed around as the "right answer," I got copies of PBUC and CCA Manual. CCA Manual has been a great tool for proper positional mechanics. These boards can be a great resource, but weeding out the good from the bad can be a chore....

[bobbybanaduck]

Originally Posted by ManInBlue

Sure, plenty of them. First that comes to mind - R2, fly ball to F9, PU goes to 3B ("I've got 3rd if he tags") - BU rolls home in case there is an errant throw - needs to wait for R2 to commit to 3rd before leaving though.

edit to add - Rich posted before I got through typing - He's right - normally there is no need for PU to cover 3B and BU to go home. But if PU hustles and gets up the line to help or just because then ... there are plenty of times the PU can go up 3BL to help out - that's when BU needs to roll home, unless you have a trailing runner that you are responsible for.



Yep - unless BU is able to position himself to make that call (and let you know he's got it) AND still be able to be in position to get home for that play. Best bet...That's why your called the Field or Base umpire - you better get it.



Sounds like they better be kicking their horses. PU has got to see the ball - the ball is ALWAYS you first responsibility - so he needs to get into position to get home as the throw is coming and still see the ball clearly - or BU better let him know he's at home (and then PU has to wake up to possibly get to 3B or 2B)

I'm sure I'll take some heat for these answers - that's OK - I'm curious what others say anyway.

i don't think there is anything correct in this post. F.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by ManInBlue

Sure, plenty of them. First that comes to mind - R2, fly ball to F9, PU goes to 3B ("I've got 3rd if he tags") - BU rolls home in case there is an errant throw - needs to wait for R2 to commit to 3rd before leaving though.

edit to add - Rich posted before I got through typing - He's right - normally there is no need for PU to cover 3B and BU to go home. But if PU hustles and gets up the line to help or just because then ... there are plenty of times the PU can go up 3BL to help out - that's when BU needs to roll home, unless you have a trailing runner that you are responsible for.



Yep - unless BU is able to position himself to make that call (and let you know he's got it) AND still be able to be in position to get home for that play. Best bet...That's why your called the Field or Base umpire - you better get it.



Sounds like they better be kicking their horses. PU has got to see the ball - the ball is ALWAYS you first responsibility - so he needs to get into position to get home as the throw is coming and still see the ball clearly - or BU better let him know he's at home (and then PU has to wake up to possibly get to 3B or 2B)

Total chaos!!
Sounds like whoever gets to the base first gets to make the call.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by ManInBlue

But if PU hustles and gets up the line to help or just because then ... there are plenty of times the PU can go up 3BL to help out - that's when BU needs to roll home, unless you have a trailing runner that you are responsible for.

The plate umpire does not go up the third base line to "help out." I hate it when I am working the bases, and some over-eager PU is up the line by 3rd base on plays when he doesn't have a play at 3rd responsibility.

The PU should not be in the "library" unless he has a possible assignment at third base. Otherwise, he should stay at home. The only time he should venture up the 3rd base line is when he has a play. These are those plays:

1) Runner from 1st to 3rd, with both ball and runner coming to third. If either ball or runner not going to third, he goes home.

2) When there is a rundown between 2nd and 3rd, or between home and 3rd if multiple runners and he has the runner by himself.

3) The advance on tag-ups with R1 and R2, he has R2 advancing to 3rd.

4) When BU in A goes out on a ball down the RF line, and the PU has the BR all the way to 3rd.

Other than these examples, the PU should stay put.

Originally Posted by ManInBlue

Yep - unless BU is able to position himself to make that call (and let you know he's got it) AND still be able to be in position to get home for that play. Best bet...That's why your called the Field or Base umpire - you better get it.

Unless the PU is incapacitated, such as knocked unconscious or breaks his leg, the BU should never have to cover the plate from B or C. Only after going out from A does the BU have the assignment of covering home plate.

Originally Posted by ManInBlue

Sounds like they better be kicking their horses. PU has got to see the ball - the ball is ALWAYS you first responsibility - so he needs to get into position to get home as the throw is coming and still see the ball clearly - or BU better let him know he's at home (and then PU has to wake up to possibly get to 3B or 2B)

Again, shouldn't be a problem. I don't cover home plate from B or C. PU does not necessarily have to see the ball. If he is hustling home, perhaps the BU could watch the ball, hmmmm.

Originally Posted by ManInBlue

I'm sure I'll take some heat for these answers - that's OK - I'm curious what others say anyway.

Back under the bus, Darien.

[RPatrino]

Man in Blue, where did you get the idea that BU should cover the plate from B or C? I'd be interested to know, because as you have seen, that is a foreign concept here.

Is this a sort of mechanics variation that is used in your area?

[ManInBlue]

I knew I'd catch some heat - but hey that's life.

However, the get to 3B to help out idea was taught at a clinic by professional umpires that have several years experience and are instructors at Wendelstat's. You don't have to like it, or even agree with it. I'll take the crap for my answers on the other two situations, but on this one I'm standing my ground.

I may have had my situations mixed, but w/R2 only or with R1 and R2 why can't PU get to 3B (not discussing the fly ball to F9 going toward the line - that's his first priority and he needs to stay on the line). With R1 and R2 he does need to get down there (of course BU isn't going home in this sitch either).

Admittedly with only one runner, BU has nothing else to do. That's not my point. My point is simply that if your PU busts his @$$ to get to third to help you, then you can bust your @$$ to help him. Does he have to go, no, but IF he does then...

Anyway, it is a mechanic taught by the pros for two man mechanics.

Throw me under the bus (as Steve so politely pointed out ) - I don't care, I have a reserved seat, AC and a good view.

[ManInBlue]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

Man in Blue, where did you get the idea that BU should cover the plate from B or C? I'd be interested to know, because as you have seen, that is a foreign concept here.

Is this a sort of mechanics variation that is used in your area?

No, not specifically. Although some do use it. I got it from Paul Nauert (sp?), Jerry Crawford, and Brian Reiley (sp?). I've also read it, I believe, but don't recall off the top of my head where.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by ManInBlue

Anyway, it is a mechanic taught by the pros for two man mechanics.

No, it's not. I think you have the "set-up" confused. Neither Evans nor Wendlestedt nor PBUC teaches, in two man, to have PU cover third with R2 only, nor do any of them teach BU covering home when starting on the grass.

You or your memory are mistaken.

According to one of organizations I listed above, what they might "talk about", but still never teach, is that if the PU F-ed up and went to third when he wasn't supposed to, and the BU can bail his sorry a$$ out without giving up a runner, he could do so. But, they emphasized, it would never be an approved mechanic, a taught mechanic or in anyway pre-planned.