R3 grabs foul ball

[bossman72]

i'm on 3rd base in a 4 man crew in a legion game. R3 takes his lead in foul. Batter hits a chopper down the line about 6 ft (clearly) in foul territory but pretty much right at R3. R3 reaches out with his right arm (away from the foul line) and actually catches the ball.

PU calls foul ball right away and i casually put my hands up and nod to "sell" the call since everyone was caught a little off guard by it. The ball didn't really have any chance of becoming fair. Nobody said a word about it.


I'm 99% certain that we made the correct call, but i'd like some reassurance from you guys

Thanks

[ManInBlue]

You got it right. R3 was in foul territory, so no problem. Runner is out when he is hit by a fair batted ball.

[bossman72]

Yeah, i was hesitant because R3 intentionally grabbed it, which was my major malfunction about the play.

[mbyron]

Given that R3 is in foul territory, the more pressing question is whether F5 had a play on the ball to make an out. If it's a bounding ball, then clearly there's no interference, but on a looping line drive there's a strong presumption in favor of interference if F5 had any reasonable chance of recording an out.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by bossman72

i'm on 3rd base in a 4 man crew in a legion game. R3 takes his lead in foul. Batter hits a chopper down the line about 6 ft (clearly) in foul territory but pretty much right at R3. R3 reaches out with his right arm (away from the foul line) and actually catches the ball.

PU calls foul ball right away and i casually put my hands up and nod to "sell" the call since everyone was caught a little off guard by it. The ball didn't really have any chance of becoming fair. Nobody said a word about it.


I'm 99% certain that we made the correct call, but i'd like some reassurance from you guys

Thanks

If the ball had not crossed 3B, or come to a stop, then you have R interfering. Who knows, could hit a rock and rebound fair. This is a deliberate act. If the HC of the other team had come out on you with this very argument, how would you defend it? Crystal balls probably won't be persuasive.

OTOH, the traditional call here is "Foul" so you are stuck in the middle, aren't you?

[DG]

Originally Posted by bossman72

i'm on 3rd base in a 4 man crew in a legion game. R3 takes his lead in foul. Batter hits a chopper down the line about 6 ft (clearly) in foul territory but pretty much right at R3. R3 reaches out with his right arm (away from the foul line) and actually catches the ball.

PU calls foul ball right away and i casually put my hands up and nod to "sell" the call since everyone was caught a little off guard by it. The ball didn't really have any chance of becoming fair. Nobody said a word about it.


I'm 99% certain that we made the correct call, but i'd like some reassurance from you guys

Thanks

6 foot foul with no chance of being fair, I say you got it 100%

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by fitump56

If the ball had not crossed 3B, or come to a stop, then you have R interfering. Who knows, could hit a rock and rebound fair. This is a deliberate act. If the HC of the other team had come out on you with this very argument, how would you defend it? Crystal balls probably won't be persuasive.

The OP is not interference. As another poster said, this is a ball bounding over foul territory, so F5 is not able to catch it in flight to record an out.

My defense for this is simple, the ball had no chance of becoming fair, that's why I ruled it foul. We see base coaches handle these types of bounding balls all the time, why is it different for runners?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by fitump56

If the ball had not crossed 3B, or come to a stop, then you have R interfering. Who knows, could hit a rock and rebound fair. This is a deliberate act. If the HC of the other team had come out on you with this very argument, how would you defend it? Crystal balls probably won't be persuasive.

OTOH, the traditional call here is "Foul" so you are stuck in the middle, aren't you?

This is not correct. A ball that contacts a player in foul ground is a foul ball. The interference rule specifically states a FAIR batted ball. Guess what ... even if you have intent here, you don't have an out. There's no verbiage in the rule about interference that mentions a ball over foul ground that MIGHT become fair. We don't deal in could'ves here.

The ball becomes foul the second it touches the runner (intent or not), and the interference rule doesn't allow us to call him out for intentionally contacting a foul ball (unless it could have been caught, obviously).

[UmpLarryJohnson]

WOW smfitty, what WILL you come up with next?? This is a FOUL ball all the way -- you really thinka coach would come out and argue thatt a playerr touching a 6foot-bounding foul ball is INTERFERANCE? and that any blue worth a tinkersdarn would LISTEN to such?

you ARE just argueing for the heckuvit. Now go answer your ownposts 6 more times

[soundedlikeastrike]

Sounds like you got away with it. But I'd a added to the runner "don't do that".

You say the ball was 6' foul, well what about 6" foul, how about a bunt rolling up the line just 1" into foul ground?

This is a batted ball, until it passes 3rd, "then" it's either fair or foul not an instant before. Would you call "foul ball" on first contact with foul ground, no.
You wait until it passes the bag.

The ball is foul if "it" contacts something or someone while over foul ground.
Not foul when it's "touched" by an offensive player.

The difference when a coach does it is the proximity to the bag, coaches are usually even or beyond the bag/s. Runners are usually several feet down the line. Squelch this action right away.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by soundedlikeastrike

Sounds like you got away with it. But I'd a added to the runner "don't do that".

Why ... a warning like that should be accompanied by a penalty if someone does it again. What penalty are you going to apply (and how will you justify it) if he does do it again? Don't warn for stuff that's not illegal just because you don't like it.

You say the ball was 6' foul, well what about 6" foul, how about a bunt rolling up the line just 1" into foul ground?

Good point, or not. What about a bunt rolling just 1 inch foul. Say he picks this one up. Show me the rule that justifies you penalizing that. You won't find it - it's not illegal.

The ball is foul if "it" contacts something or someone while over foul ground.
Not foul when it's "touched" by an offensive player.

Having trouble understanding what you mean here. It is too foul when it's touched by an offensive player. That is merely a subset of the possibilities in your first sentence.

The difference when a coach does it is the proximity to the bag, coaches are usually even or beyond the bag/s. Runners are usually several feet down the line. Squelch this action right away.

Again ... why, and by what rule?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Good point, or not. What about a bunt rolling just 1 inch foul. Say he picks this one up. Show me the rule that justifies you penalizing that. You won't find it - it's not illegal.

7.09 (b): A runner is out when -- He intentionally deflects the course of a foul ball in any manner.

Note that MLBUM clarifies:

6.18 INTENTIONALLY DEFLECTING COURSE OF FOUL BALL
Official Baseball Rule 7.09(b) provides that the batter or runner is out for interference if he
intentionally "deflects the course of a foul ball in any manner." While picking up a foul ball or
otherwise touching it may not, by such act itself, actually deflect the course of the ball, an umpire
may judge such act as deflecting the course of the ball if, in the umpire's judgment, the ball
might have become a fair ball had it not been touched.
It would be better if no member of the offensive team picked up or otherwise touched a foul ball.
There is no objection to a coach returning a foul ball to the umpire after it has passed first or
third base, but the coach should not touch a ball that possibly may go fair.

[ozzy6900]

I think that this is a silly point to argue about. Simply put, Smitty will rule it interference no matter what we tell him. Those with intelligence will rule this as a proper arbiter.

You cannot teach Smitty!

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

While picking up a foul ball or
otherwise touching it may not, by such act itself, actually deflect the course of the ball, an umpire
may judge such act as deflecting the course of the ball if, in the umpire's judgment, the ball
might have become a fair ball had it not been touched.

This is exactly what I was going to say. It is the umpire's judgment of whether the ball might have had a chance to go fair. 6 feet off the line is a bit farfetched to imagine hitting anything that would cause it to go fair.

7.09(b) is the correct rule to apply if the ball is near the line.

[soundedlikeastrike]

I will try and convince you: Sounds like a chore though.

To think a batted ball that's still live, can be intentionally caught, kicked, or whatever, by the offense is absurd.

My original post, "sounds like you got away with it", means just that. A real coach would have eat'n ya up, and rightfully so, especially at this level of play. He (coach) simply agreed, that the ball had no chance of being fair, so no harm done, shows his ingnorance (of the rules) right there.

To warn, "don't do that" is simply agreeing that it should not be done and that a penalty could be awarded, should it be repeated.

I personally don't agree, with a "don't do that" as it does give the message that there is no penalty. Since the infraction and penalty were ignored, that would be the least to do, "don't do that" with perhaps a non-commital explanation; "hey, you were lucky there, that ball was foul, but if it has a chance your interferiing"..

Some rule quotes for ya:

A FOUL BALL is a batted ball that settles on foul territory between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that bounds past first or third base on or over foul territory, or that first falls on foul territory beyond first or third base, or that, while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground.

IMO: The ball is not foul, this ball did not touch anything, it was "touched intentionally" by an offensive player.

INTERFERENCE
(a) Offensive interference is an act by the team at bat which interferes with, obstructs, impedes, hinders or confuses any fielder attempting to make a play. If the umpire declares the batter, batter- runner, or a runner out for interference, all other runners shall return to the last base that was in the judgment of the umpire, legally touched at the time of the interference, unless otherwise provided by these rules.

IMO: this is a batted ball, still live and not yet foul.

A LIVE BALL is a ball which is in play.
IMO: See above.


Official Rules: 7.00 The Runner

7.08
Any runner is out when --
(b) He intentionally interferes with a thrown ball; or hinders a fielder attempting to make a play on a batted ball;
Rule 7.08(b) Comment: A runner who is adjudged to have hindered a fielder who is attempting to make a play on a batted ball is out whether it was intentional or not.
If, however, the runner has contact with a legally occupied base when he hinders the fielder, he shall not be called out unless, in the umpire’s judgment, such hindrance, whether it occurs on "fair or foul territory", is intentional. If the umpire declares the "hindrance intentional", the following penalty shall apply: With less than two out, the umpire shall declare both the runner and batter out. With two out, the umpire shall declare the batter out.

IMO: the fielder was hindered attempting to make a play on a live batted ball.

6.05
A batter is out when --
(i) After hitting or bunting a foul ball, he intentionally deflects the course of the ball in any manner while running to first base. The ball is dead and no runners may advance;

IMO: if the batter can't do it, neither can a baserunner..