Home Run or Catch?

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Right. Send him BACK to 2B (he'd already rounded). And then what do you say to the base coach who enquires, "Isn't that award 1 base from the last base legally touched?"

If you reply, "1B is the last base legally touched, coach," you've given the game away.

Second base was never legally obtained,by rule.

If the coach does not know the rules that is his problem.

The ball is dead on the player going into the stands. Runners are entitled to move up one base.

If R1 fails to retouch first and is appealed he is out.

Then you can explain the rule to the coach, or invite him to the next rules interpretation clinic.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Right. Send him BACK to 2B (he'd already rounded). And then what do you say to the base coach who enquires, "Isn't that award 1 base from the last base legally touched?"

If you reply, "1B is the last base legally touched, coach," you've given the game away.

So just say "Yes."

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

Second base was never legally obtained,by rule.

If the coach does not know the rules that is his problem.

The ball is dead on the player going into the stands. Runners are entitled to move up one base.

If R1 fails to retouch first and is appealed he is out.

Then you can explain the rule to the coach, or invite him to the next rules interpretation clinic.

He runs the bases properly and the defense appeals, the runner is out. He was past second when the ball went dead.

[jimpiano]

He was past second when the ball went dead

His last legally obtained base was first base since the ball was caught on the fly. If he stays on second without retouching ihe s in jeopardy of being called out on an appeal.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

He runs the bases properly and the defense appeals, the runner is out. He was past second when the ball went dead.

That's only in FED. In NCAA and OBR the runner is allowed to retouch.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

That's only in FED. In NCAA and OBR the runner is allowed to retouch.

You're right. I was thinking I read that when I posted Rule 7.10. Seems only the missed base applies.

[Baseball_North]

Thanks for all the quick responses. The game in question from my original post plays straight up official rules of baseball.

So a fielder making a catch and falling over a fence is always an out. If less than two outs, any runners advance once base.

Got it. Thanks!

[soundedlikeastrike]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Right. Send him BACK to 2B (he'd already rounded). And then what do you say to the base coach who enquires, "Isn't that award 1 base from the last base legally touched?"

If you reply, "1B is the last base legally touched, coach," you've given the game away.

Time, you 3rd base, is what ya gotta call.

He's rounded 2nd, the award is 3rd. Not my problem if he doens't fulfill his obligation to re-touch (before he touches 3rd). I,m not out there too second guess if the D is gonna appeal, nor am I guessing the O isn't trying to steal one. Award the base and rule on the result/s.

Once everyone see's the out call on the catch, their supposed to know what to do, retouch, if less than two outs.

Would a runner fail to retouch if he was scrambling back to 1st to do so, when the ball went past the F3 and OOP, probably not. Even if you called "time" and awarded 3rd before, he had re-touched. Might confuse em, but only once, I'm sure.

They should also know the runner can retouch on a dead ball, as long as he hasn't touched the next base, after the ball is dead.

And if he does touch the next base and still goes back and retouches, I sure ain't stopping him there either, that's the defenses job to know he can't, and to make a proper appeal.

Not
Ump: "whoa there base runner where you going"?
BR: "Ah, back to re-touch sir".
Ump: "No you can't, because you've already touched the next base after the call of time on a DB".

Or
Ump: "You second".
BR: "But sir, that's a one base award, I already touched 2nd".
Ump: "I know, but you left early and have to retouch, so I can only make you go backwards, to the base you already touched, cause if I let you keep going, you'll still be subject to appeal at 1st.

Just none of our business IMO. Make your award and rule on any developments.

[DG]

Originally Posted by soundedlikeastrike

Time, you 3rd base, is what ya gotta call.

He's rounded 2nd, the award is 3rd.

The award is 2B, after he retouches 1B. "YOU, second base" is the award. If he goes there and stands without going back to 1B to retouch I wait for the appeal, after the ball is made live mind you. Until it is made live he can go back to 1B and if he or his coaching staff is on the ball he will. If he goes there touches 2B, returns to 1B and then goes back to 2B I have a legal award and bases touched properly.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by soundedlikeastrike

Time, you 3rd base, is what ya gotta call.

Why kill it? If anything, the only proper award to make is 2B. If ump sends R1 to 3B, something bad may happen as soon as R1 begins to follow ump's directions. If R1 touches 3rd, he also loses the opportunity to retouch 1B.

Stay away from "Time, you on 3B, go back to 2B." or "Time, you on 2B, stay at 2B."

I would signal the out on the catch and keep quiet. The base coaches better instruct R1 to 1B because there are not many baserunning options open for them. I would signal the 2nd out upon proper appeal at 1B or for a tag.

[TussAgee11]

SAump:

Would you endorse not saying anything other than "catch" until the runner retouches 1st, then award 2nd? A bit of preventive umpiring by not saying anything?

Or is that too much prodding and allowing the runner a way to get back to first even if he's stupid (and his coaches).

[jimpiano]

Time, you 3rd base, is what ya gotta call.

That is just moronic.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

SAump:
Would you endorse not saying anything other than "catch" until the runner retouches 1st, then award 2nd? A bit of preventive umpiring by not saying anything?
Or is that too much prodding and allowing the runner a way to get back to first even if he's stupid (and his coaches).

Be careful with the type of appeal, either for placement or for re-touch. Not saying anything until an appeal is made for the proper placement of R1 to go back to 2B or 1B. I would grant the placement appeal back to 2B, but not 1B during the dead ball situation. Then I would wait for a live ball and/or first pitch to determine whether R1 is out or has stolen either 2B or both 2B and 3B. Teams also have a responsibility to know the situation.

LL Myth 17. The runner gets the base he's going to, plus one on a ball (carried or) thrown out-of-play.

[soundedlikeastrike]

Moronic or not: an excerpt from MLBUM may also be moronic, but it's the mechanic I'd use.

I would indeed kill it, as the ball did go OOP, that's "time" in any ball park. Whether thrown, carried or batted.

Once the runner has touched 2nd, he's touched second and owns it.
Albeit not quit yet legally, not my problem either.

At the time the ball went dead he was between 2nd and 3rd, after, "touching 2nd". The award must be one base from where he was.

If the runner does what he's supposed to, retouches, then yes, I agree, the award would now be 2B.

I cannot authenticate this, but it comes from a source I trust.
It entertains a two base award, I can't recall any source that would dictate a one base award, be treated any differently.

From MLBUM:
Baseball Rule 7.05(i).)
Play: Runner on first, one out. Batter flies out to right field for second out. However, runner on first thought there were two out and is between second and third when the ball is caught.
Right fielder's throw to first is wild and goes into the dugout.
Runner is between second and third when
the wild throw is made.
Ruling: Runner is initially awarded home (two bases from his position at the time of the throw).
However, while the ball is dead, the runner must return to and retouch first base.
Furthermore, because the runner was between second and third when the ball went out of play, he must return to first before reaching and touching third (his next base). If the runner touches third, he may not
return to first; and if the defensive team appeals, the runner is out at first.

However, if the runner properly returns and retouches first before reaching third, the award then becomes third base (two bases from his original base).

[SAump]

Originally Posted by soundedlikeastrike

Moronic or not: an excerpt from MLBUM may also be moronic, but it's the mechanic I'd use. I would indeed kill it, as the ball did go OOP, that's "time" in any ball park. Whether thrown, carried or batted. Once the runner has touched 2nd, he's touched second and owns it. Albeit not quit yet legally, not my problem either. At the time the ball went dead he was between 2nd and 3rd, after, "touching 2nd". The award must be one base from where he was.
If the runner does what he's supposed to, retouches, then yes, I agree, the award would now be 2B. I cannot authenticate this, but it comes from a source I trust. It entertains a two base award, I can't recall any source that would dictate a one base award, be treated any differently.

From MLBUM: Baseball Rule 7.05(i).)
Play: Runner on first, one out. Batter flies out to right field for second out. However, runner on first thought there were two out and is between second and third when the ball is caught. Right fielder's throw to first is wild and goes into the dugout. Runner is between second and third when the wild throw is made. Ruling: Runner is initially awarded home (two bases from his position at the time of the throw).
However, while the ball is dead, the runner must return to and retouch first base. Furthermore, because the runner was between second and third when the ball went out of play, he must return to first before reaching and touching third (his next base). If the runner touches third, he may not
return to first; and if the defensive team appeals, the runner is out at first.
However, if the runner properly returns and retouches first before reaching third, the award then becomes third base (two bases from his original base).

Quoting your MLBUM was good. Did you notice both "howevers" and feel right about the original ruling? Someone brighter than me would have to explain why the difference in opinion appears in the MLBUM.

OBR 7.05(i) Comment {2}: If a runner is forced to return to a base after a catch, he must retouch his original base even though, because of some ground rule or other rule, he is awarded additional bases. He may retouch while the ball is dead and the award is then made from his original base.

In MLBUM play above, the correct award was 3B. From BRD #35 Play 44-35, "At all levels the umpire awards R1 third. In FED (if it's legal), NCAA, and OBR , if the runner does not retouch before he touches third, he is in peril of being called out on appeal." BRD #419 also provides for the same ruling. R1, may not return to touch 1B in FED or NCAA {when not in act of returning}; but in OBR, "he must return before receiving the award."