Catch or No Catch?

[soonerfan]

This happened in a Men's League game I was playing in the other day, something for you all to discuss.

Long fly ball hit to the gap in LC. CF is on a dead sprint towards the fence (chain-link). CF makes a nice grab still in a dead sprint and not even two strides after the catch he hits the fence with full force, not to mention that he hit the fence where it was connected to a post so there was NO give. the CF had tried to brace as best he could by putting up his hands in front of him, but to of no apparent avail because he fell straight back like a limp noodle. you may know what i mean by him falling limply. anyhow, he has hung onto the ball thus far. since he had his hands up on the fence his glove hand was the last thing to hit the ground. his arm fell and his elbow hit the ground and then the glove. as his glove hit the ball pops out. very obvious that the ball came out because the LF was several feet away and picked it up. Field ump calls an out and then once the ball came in he stops play to check on the CF. Plate ump is walking towards left and I approach him and ask how that's an out. "what about voluntary release?' i asked. he only replied that his partner had an out and he agreed. well, i am interested in having a good time and arguing over an amateur baseball game is a bit rediculous, i let it go. what do you all think?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by soonerfan
This happened in a Men's League game I was playing in the other day, something for you all to discuss.

(snip)

What do you all think?

As described, not a catch.

[Jerry]

In all due respect to my peers. Why would this be any different than a fielder making a catch, running towards the dugout at the end of the inning, tripping enroute and dropping the ball?

Time of possession has to be taken into consideration. Once the out is made, that being the fielder have secure possesion of the ball, there's no reason to even suggest he needs to remove the ball from the glove. Am I missing something here?

Jerry

[greymule]

In fact, you'll get yourself into nothing but trouble if you think in terms of "time of possession."

The play you described is not the same as catching the ball and then dropping it 25 steps later before you enter the dugout. In that case, you have clearly established secure possession of the ball. The play is over. The dropping came later.

But in your case, the collision with the fence and the fall are all part of the play. He has to hold on to the ball for the entire play to prove secure possession.

Length of time is really not relevant. When the shortstop catches a throw for a force out at 2B and then drops the ball a split second later, the out stands if the drop came on the next play (the attempt to throw to 1B for the DP). But an outfielder might have the ball in his glove for several seconds and then drop it for a "no catch." This happened at Wrigley field last year when the center fielder caught the ball, hit the fence two steps later, stumbled back in toward the field, fell, and dropped the ball. No catch, though the ball was probably in his glove for 3 or 4 seconds.

I had one last year where the center fielder ran in to his right, speared the ball backhanded, and then stumbled about 5 steps, all the while trying to regain his balance, until he fell and finally dropped the ball. No catch.

However, I heard the usual "He had the ball for 3 seconds, ump!"

[Edited by greymule on Jun 12th, 2003 at 12:52 PM]

[Jerry]

Tim:
I certainly understand Greymule's and your perception; and don't have a quarrel with how you decide "catch" or "no catch". But "voluntary release" is only one criteria in which to judge possession.

Another example: "Show me the ball!" as runner slides into 3rd with a tag. F5 brings up his glove and instantaneously the ball "pops out of" his glove. In your interpretation, the same "occurence" would cause a "safe" call; but that's not what should have been ruled.

In the scenario listed, ball goes into glove, fielder hits fence two steps later (still holding onto the ball), fielder falls to ground (still holding onto the ball), elbow hits ground (still holding onto the ball) and only then does the ball come loose. In my opinion, the "occurrence" was the initial fielding of the ball into the glove and hitting into the fence. Once the outfielder has sustained those TWO events, he has already established the catch. The ball coming out of the glove didn't happen until AFTER his elbow had already hit the ground.

Again . . . my own view and opinion. I would have called a "catch" after his rebound from the fence and still in possession of the ball.

Jerry

[greymule]

Can't agree there. "Show me the ball" creates a new "play," just like F6 dropping the ball while trying to make a throw.

With the fielder hitting the fence, stumbling, falling, etc., those things are all part of the same play. They are directly connected with each other and not part of a new act. I wish I had a tape of that outfielder at Wrigley field, because although the woman on the evening sports said she thought the fielder "held the ball long enough," the umpires did not, and the team did not argue the point.

Another interesting question is what establishes "secure possession" for a fielder touching a base. What if, for example, F3 fields a ground ball but trips over 1B as he tags it, falls, and drops the ball? What if the throw draws F3 into BR, and though F3 catches the ball and has it for a moment, a collision causes to ball to come out? To me, the line is a little different from that of an outfielder catching a fly, and I'm not sure exactly where that line is.

[Edited by greymule on Jun 12th, 2003 at 02:51 PM]

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by Jerry
Tim:
I certainly understand Greymule's and your perception;

This is not a perception. Theirs is the proper ruling. The entire scenario: catch, crash, fall, fumble, is all part of the action of catching. That action is not over until the player has complete control of himself enough to begin a new action, such as throwing. As you have described the scenario, THIS IS NOT A CATCH. No perception. No interpretation. NO CATCH.

Another example: "Show me the ball!" as runner slides into 3rd with a tag. F5 brings up his glove and instantaneously the ball "pops out of" his glove. In your interpretation, the same "occurence" would cause a "safe" call; but that's not what should have been ruled.

Wrong! A safe call is absolutely the correct call and for the same reason - the defense did not maintain control of the ball throught the action of tagging the runner. The catch may very well have been good and completed before the action of tagging began. But the defense must maintain control throughout the tag. If the umpire asks to see the ball, then he feels the tag was good but is concerned about control. If the defense comes up with the ball secured, the correct call is out. If the ball is not secured - not in or falls from his mitt, the correct call is safe.

Again . . . my own view and opinion. I would have called a "catch" after his rebound from the fence and still in possession of the ball.

THEN YOU WOULD HAVE HOSED THE CALL. This is not a catch and the batter runner is not out. Live ball. Play on.

Jerry

I felt compelled to respond because many people read this forum and my answer is for them as well as you. Hope it helps.

[greymule]

On the "show me" tag at 3B, if the fielder can't bring the ball up, safe. If the fielder brings the glove up and the ball is in it, and then the ball flies out as a result of the lifting of the glove, out. Showing the ball to the ump is a new "play."

I think that's a HTBT, too.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

NFHS rules 2-9-1 excerpts

A catch is the act of fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a live ball in flight and firmly holding it, ... The catch of a fly ball by a fielder is not completed until the continuing actio of the catch is completed. A fielder who catches a ball and then runs into a wall or another player and drops the ball has not made a catch. A fielder, at full speed, who cathces a ball and whose initial momentum carries him several more yards after which the ball drops from his glove has not made a catch. When the fielder, by his action of stopping, removing the ballfrom his glove, etc., signifies the initial action is completed and then drops the ball, will be judged to have made the catch.

Some excerpts form the casebook 2.9.1A
Attempts to regain balance after receiving [the] ball are considered a part of the act of catching; and if the fielder does not come up with the ballin his possession, it is not considered a catch. In all such cases, judgement is a factor. If the ball is clearly in the fielder's possession and if some other new movement not related to the catch is then made, and if the ball is fumbled during such new movement, the upmpire will declare it a catch followed by a fumble.

Jerry, in your case the speed with which he was moving allowed him to make the catch but it also caused him to crash into the wall and the crash is therefore part of the catch.

2.9.1C
...it is a legal catch if an umpire rules that the ball was dropped as the fielder voluntarily removed the ball from the glove.