Little League Slide Rule

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Illini_Ref

I find it interesting that LL uses "slide or attempt to get around", instead of "slide or avoid contact". In theory could a LLer make contact with a fielder with the ball as long as he was "attempting" to get around said fielder?

The rule is obviously there for safety reasons. I think it should say "a fielder in possession of the ball or awaiting an impending play". As long as it isn't malicious, a LLer can make contact as long as the ball is not in the glove of the fielder.

Illini,

I'm curious what rules set provides that a runner must "slide or avoid contact"? The LL rule where a runner must slide or attempt to get around a fielder is essentially the same as FED "does not legally slide or attempt to avoid a fielder.


Tim.

[PeteBooth]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Where is it written or specified that no one is allowed to ask a Little League question? Did this become your private forum all of a sudden, where only shaving age questions are asked?

I am not speaking for Garth, but the main reason he most likely referred the poster to that Forum was because LL rules are unique and there are many experienced LL umpires at eteamz who can answer not only this type of question but many others as well.

Example: I have not umpired LL in quite some time but my Summer assignor has the Contract for some 50 LL BIG League games. LL has institututed many new rules or changed rules througout the years so I asked some specific questions on that Forum ie; LL Rule 7.14 (Special Pinch runner rule)

Also, items such as Can the coach warm up F1. Pitch count limits etc. etc. that unless you SPECIFICALLY umpire LL you would have no clue about. They were very helpful

The tournament rules are also different. Hey speaking of the tournament where's Dave with his infamous Chart for LL All Stars?

Therefore, in a nutshell IMO it's not about ego but directing posters to the BEST place that can answer their question(s).

Pete Booth

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

I am not speaking for Garth, but the main reason he most likely referred the poster to that Forum was because LL rules are unique and there are many experienced LL umpires at eteamz who can answer not only this type of question but many others as well.

Example: I have not umpired LL in quite some time but my Summer assignor has the Contract for some 50 LL BIG League games. LL has institututed many new rules or changed rules througout the years so I asked some specific questions on that Forum ie; LL Rule 7.14 (Special Pinch runner rule)

Also, items such as Can the coach warm up F1. Pitch count limits etc. etc. that unless you SPECIFICALLY umpire LL you would have no clue about. They were very helpful

The tournament rules are also different. Hey speaking of the tournament where's Dave with his infamous Chart for LL All Stars?

Therefore, in a nutshell IMO it's not about ego but directing posters to the BEST place that can answer their question(s).

Pete Booth

Believe it or not, Pete, there are quite a few very knowledgable members here that can and do answer LL specific questions just as well as at any other forum.


Tim.

[Tim C]

See I am much like Garth. I enjoy sites that allow small diamond umpires the choice of posting in a specific "small diamond" area (if they would only use that option).

I never hidden my ultimate dislike of small diamond baseball. Elitist or not matters not too me . . . I just "like" sites where we talk of full sized games played by shaving aged players.

eTeamZ seems to be the perfect place for small diamond umpires to get the correct information from people that treasure the opportunity to umpire (and coach) in that environment.

Regards,

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Tim C

See I am much like Garth. I enjoy sites that allow small diamonds umpires the choice of posting in a specific "small diamond" area (if they would only use that option).

I never hidden my ultimate dislike of small diamond baseball. Elitist or not matters not too me . . . I just "like" sites where we talk of full sized games played by shaving aged players.

eTeamZ seems to be the perfect place for small diamond umpires to get the correct information from people that treasure the ooportunity to umpire (and coach) in that environment.

Regards,

I understand that, Tim. Still, there are those of us who work LL juniors through big league that like to discuss LL rules and mechanics here. I like knowing that I can have an exchange with Rich Fronheiser, Dave Hensley, and others here about LL mechanics and rules for the big diamond. As has been said many times before; there are LL umpires and there are umpires who umpire some LL.


Tim.

[Illini_Ref]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Illini,

I'm curious what rules set provides that a runner must "slide or avoid contact"? The LL rule where a runner must slide or attempt to get around a fielder is essentially the same as FED "does not legally slide or attempt to avoid a fielder.


Tim.

I am saying that "slide or avoid contact" would be better wording for ALL rule sets that have similar language. More black and white for the umpire that way. If you make contact (not initiated by the fielder) and are not sliding, you are out.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Illini_Ref

If you make contact (not initiated by the fielder) and are not sliding, you are out.

I can't speak for LL, but for other codes, that is exactly why they don't have the language you suggest. Contact happens and you can't have blanket policy.

Using the phrase "attempt to avoid" makes far more sense. It keeps the onus on the runner, but recognizes reality.

[Jim Porter]

Originally Posted by Tim C

See I am much like Garth. I enjoy sites that allow small diamond umpires the choice of posting in a specific "small diamond" area (if they would only use that option).

I never hidden my ultimate dislike of small diamond baseball. Elitist or not matters not too me . . . I just "like" sites where we talk of full sized games played by shaving aged players.

eTeamZ seems to be the perfect place for small diamond umpires to get the correct information from people that treasure the opportunity to umpire (and coach) in that environment.

Regards,

The original post, although likely asked by a poster with the small diamond in mind, had an answer that applied to all divisions of Little League right up to 18-year-olds.

Just because someone says, "Little League," doesn't necessarily mean it's a small diamond topic. It can also very much pertain to big diamond big-boy baseball. In some parts of the country, Little League's 16-18-year-old division is just as competitive as some amateur-independent leagues.

[LilLeaguer]

Originally Posted by GarthB

I can't speak for LL, but for other codes, that is exactly why they don't have the language you suggest. Contact happens and you can't have blanket policy.

Using the phrase "attempt to avoid" makes far more sense. It keeps the onus on the runner, but recognizes reality.

And this kind of response is why this LL umpire is here.

I'm not actually planning on officiating different rule codes, but I'm fascinated by the additional insight they give to the rules and standards of baseball. I'm sure that I'm a better LL umpire from reading (and very occasionally posting) to this site.

In any case, as you're well aware by now, it's hard to keep the riffraff out of a publicly accessible internet forum. But there are any number of sites that allow anybody to create a private message board and exclude me. I hope you don't completely leave the public internet; you'll be missed.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by Illini_Ref

I am saying that "slide or avoid contact" would be better wording for ALL rule sets that have similar language. More black and white for the umpire that way. If you make contact (not initiated by the fielder) and are not sliding, you are out.

Okay, Illini_Ref; read your post again slowly! In order for your "slide or avoid contact" explanation to work, you must also add a "must slide" statement! Why? Because in your explanation,

If you make contact (not initiated by the fielder) and are not sliding, you are out.

. Of course, if you say that a runner "must slide" then you must determine "when" a runner has to slide. After that, you must evolve the discussion to "how" a runner has to slide - feet first, head first, pop-up, body block, cross body, rolling - the list ca go on and on! And after all that, you have to figure out the penalties for each of the violations!

Simply put, none of the 3 rule sets (OBR, NCAA & FED) dare to put a runner in the dirt for any reason. The spin offs (LL, Babe Ruth) also do not force a runner into the dirt. Only idiotic "local rule" jerks try force players to slide thinking that it will do something (what I still haven't figured out in over 40 years) to help the game!

The best advice I can give you is simple, work within the rule set's definition for FPSR, illegal slide, or malicious contact. There you will find the proper instructions for when a runner should get down (runner's choice) and whether said slide will be accepted. To do otherwise is just asking for trouble!

Regards

[Rich]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Ace, you weren't around when I explained this before, so I'll give it another go.

This has nothiong to do with elitism. I volunteer my time to train youth umpires as well as our asociation umpires. I've done this for years. I have also assigned for youth leagues and supervised their umpires.

I don't mind answering questions from youth umpires (provided they ask about mechanics or about rules with which I am familiar). I get PM's and emails on a regular basis from youth umpires.

However, much like when I teach and can escape once in a while to the teachers' lounge and have adult conversations without interruption from students, it was nice to have an internet board where umpires of similar background and experience could discuss and debate relevant issues. It doesn't seem unreasonable that one internet board would be created for non LL (generic) umpires to do just that as this board was.

However, LL umpires apparently have this need to dominate every board they come across. Look at the top three umpiring sites: Eteamz, ABUA and Officialforum. LL umpires are the vast majority at the first two. They can and do ask their questions and recieve answers all day long. They "own" those boards and that's fine. I tire of some of their posts so I don't go to Eteamz at all and severely limit my time at ABUA.

Add to those boards the numerous second and third tier boards which LL umpires completely control and the options they have are incredible.

Officialforum was like a sanctuary at first. Carl sent out invites to help get a "non LL" board started.. Naively, we assumed that since LL umpires already had alternatives, if they came to the new board they would come to learn about non LL ball. No problem with that. God knows beginners need a place to learn about rules other than LL.

Gradually, but with the certainty that Tee predicted, as LL umpire found the site and got their OBR, FED and NCAA questions answered, they began bringing their LL baggage with them as well. When they ask LL specific questions, I refer them one of the predominantly LL boards where they can get their questions answered by experienced LL umpires.

Oh, well, the invasion isn't limited to the boards. I was involved with a private list that went the same route. It's as if your favorite neighborhood bar got bought out, redesigned and recruited a new clientele and went from a sports theme to a 20 something martini bar.

Now I don't expect anyone to agree with this, but I had expected some to understand. Again, I was naive.

It's not naivete in the case of the mailing list, it was more a case of not waiting and seeing what would happen. The one member I added has asked a few questions (non-LL) and doesn't participate much. I didn't exactly go to the LL mailing list and throw invitations to all that posted there.

Sometimes, it's nice to open the door to the lounge and allow people to listen to the conversations that go on there. In your case, my friend, you left way too quickly and you'll always be welcome back.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by SAump

Best explanation I have seen yet on the subject of FPSR in any ruleset. Now, whether you remove the bad attitude I marked in bold above or simply improve the wording for political corrrectness; I imagine you can answer 20% of the LL'ers FPSR questions.

I umpired at an unfamiliar park once and a manager argued that the runner ALWAYS had to slide at the plate, even if there was no play being made.

I think that guy may have made it into the second inning.

[Jim Porter]

As it turns out, the Eteamz site is all screwed up. Many people can't log in and post there these days, including me. So I suspect, particularly as tournament season heats up, we'll be seeing more traffic here from Little League folks. Brace yourselves.

[DG]

Originally Posted by Jim Porter

As it turns out, the Eteamz site is all screwed up. Many people can't log in and post there these days, including me. So I suspect, particularly as tournament season heats up, we'll be seeing more traffic here from Little League folks. Brace yourselves.

http://www.umpire.org/modules.php?name=Forums

A very credible site.

[Jim Porter]

Originally Posted by DG

http://www.umpire.org/modules.php?name=Forums

A very credible site.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm aware of that -- especially considering I'm a moderator there.

That's still beside the point. The log-in failures at Eteamz may unleash a torrent of small diamond umpires searching the Internet for a place to ask their questions as the tournament progresses. I expect an influx of traffic both here and at umpire.org.