partner????? i guess not...

[socalblue1]

Originally Posted by Jim Porter

You know, I'm thinking about this even more because I'm perplexed, and I can even remember learning the mechanics quite clearly. Not only was I taught to clear the catcher and move up the third base line as PU, but I was also taught as BU not to drift and anticipate the back-end of the double play so that I would be in position to see and call any possible interference.

I've never heard of a PU clearing the catcher and coming out to the pitcher's mound. I've also never heard that the PU's responsible for interference on the front end of a double play. Both of those are news to me.

Is this a result of me coming from a backward OBR state? Or have I been doing it wrong for 20-something years?

Jim,

You were never taught the correct mechanic. PU clears F2 to left and drifts up the 3B line (Normal coverage in case R1 goes to 3B on base hit or error, etc). Once the out is made at 2B, PU cuts across toward 1B OR retreats toward HP to cover pulled foot/swipe tag at 1B. PU has interference responsibility at 2B at same time, as BU will have stepped and turned with throw to 1B.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

That's strange Jim, as I've been umpiring since 1986, and at least since then it has always been the plate umpire's call on INT at 2nd base when there is a throw following the play. If F6 had not made the throw to first base, then the call remains with the base umpire. The reason the PU takes the call on a throw is that many times, the INT happens after the throw, when the BU has already turned with the play.

Our association utilizes the CCA mechanics. Their description of this play: (With R1, batted ball to the infield) "UIC moves to the third base side of the pitcher's mound to assist U1 with the slide at at second base by R1."

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Jim Porter

Is this a FED thing? How can you have interference that the BU can't see after the throw?

No, it's a PBUC thing.

Often contact is made with the pivot man which does not become interference until after the ball has left the fielder's hand, by which time the BU must be turning with the throw for the play at first. Much action happens at this point, and the PU has the responsibility to determine whether or not interference has occurred.

Many times the BU can see the INT, but it still remains the PU's call. If PU doesn't call it and the BU is sure it was INT, then he should by all means go ahead and make the call himself, just as if there were no throw.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

No, it's a PBUC thing.
Many times the BU can see the INT, but it still remains the PU's call.

My understanding is that PBUC teaches this as a shared responsibility, either umpire can make the call.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by GarthB

My understanding is that PBUC teaches this as a shared responsibility, either umpire can make the call.

Just curious...how do they resolve it if they both make contradictory calls on the play? Do they use rock, paper, scissors or Einie, Meenie, Miney, Moe?

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Just curious...how do they resolve it if they both make contradictory calls on the play? Do they use rock, paper, scissors or Einie, Meenie, Miney, Moe?

Shared does not mean simultaneous.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Garth, my point is that if it is a shared call, how do you determine which umpire is going to make it? I think that is why so many associations teach it for the PU to take the call if there is a throw to first on the play.

[DonInKansas]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Garth, my point is that if it is a shared call, how do you determine which umpire is going to make it? I think that is why so many associations teach it for the PU to take the call if there is a throw to first on the play.

It's not like a safe/out simultaneous call that could cause mass confusion. The guy not seeing the INT isn't going to be making any sort of gesture, verbal or otherwise. I hope, anyways. If it's blatant enough that the BU can see it and his partner's picking daisies at the dish, then the BU should make that call. But a lot of the time, BU has already pivoted towards the play at 1st.

[Jim Porter]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Our association utilizes the CCA mechanics. Their description of this play: (With R1, batted ball to the infield) "UIC moves to the third base side of the pitcher's mound to assist U1 with the slide at at second base by R1."

Okay, I'm not familiar with CCA mechanics. There were some NCAA umpires in our high school association and I know there were some differences between what we were doing and what they were doing. I remember it was seldom an issue.

Originally Posted by GarthB

My understanding is that PBUC teaches this as a shared responsibility, either umpire can make the call.

This must be a fairly recent change, anyhow. Our UIC was a former pro and he was teaching the mechanics that he learned. We had our own mechanics and interpretations book that everyone referred to as, "the bible." It was NAPBL-era stuff. Shared responsibility on that play is not in the bible, so it was not part of the mechanics when he was working pro ball.

I still don't see how interference could possibly happen in such a way that the BU doesn't see it. But that's okay. I am capable of change.

[Jim Porter]

Originally Posted by DonInKansas

But a lot of the time, BU has already pivoted towards the play at 1st.

You guys keep saying this, and for the life of me I can't figure out how. BU should be pivoting with the throw. The throw should already have been made. The interference should either have happened or not have happened by the pivot. How can a runner interfere with a throw after it has already been made?

[DonInKansas]

Originally Posted by Jim Porter

You guys keep saying this, and for the life of me I can't figure out how. BU should be pivoting with the throw. The throw should already have been made. The interference should either have happened or not have happened by the pivot. How can a runner interfere with a throw after it has already been made?

The way I figure it, your eyes are on the ball up high, and the runner on the ground may be out of your field of vision at the time. If you're focusing on the ball, how do you know what the guy on the ground is doing? I'm not saying you can't see INT from your spot, just trying to give a reasonable explanation.

[Jim Porter]

Originally Posted by DonInKansas

The way I figure it, your eyes are on the ball up high, and the runner on the ground may be out of your field of vision at the time. If you're focusing on the ball, how do you know what the guy on the ground is doing? I'm not saying you can't see INT from your spot, just trying to give a reasonable explanation.

Well, I appreciate the reasonable explanation. Of course, for that matter if you're looking up high at the ball, how can you watch for the tag/touch of 2nd base? I'm just being facetious now.

Just because it doesn't make sense to me doesn't mean I'm not willing to do it. But I doubt any explanation could satisfy me. I think this should be BU's call all the way. But who am I? Just some rusty schmuck umpire on an Internet forum.

[Jim Porter]

Originally Posted by socalblue1

Jim,

You were never taught the correct mechanic. PU clears F2 to left and drifts up the 3B line (Normal coverage in case R1 goes to 3B on base hit or error, etc). Once the out is made at 2B, PU cuts across toward 1B OR retreats toward HP to cover pulled foot/swipe tag at 1B. PU has interference responsibility at 2B at same time, as BU will have stepped and turned with throw to 1B.

I was taught exactly as you described, right up until the part where you said, "PU has interference responsibility at 2B at same time".

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Jim Porter

I was taught exactly as you described, right up until the part where you said, "PU has interference responsibility at 2B at same time".

The NFHS and NCAA have additional restrictions on the runner sliding -- must be at the base or away from the fielder. Hence, the PU is expected to bust out from the plate and get to the side of the mound in order to rule on this force-play slide rule. There are differences in the NFHS and NCAA code, but the expectations on the plate umpire are the same.

Being from a non-FED state, you never would've been exposed to the FPSR.

I'm not surprised that PBUC is splitting responsibility, but the likelihood of INT happening after the throw in an OBR game is small.

[VanStanza]

I'm certain that no where in the PBUC manual does it avise that it is the PU's responsibility to make the INT call at 2nd. It's true that if the PU sees the INT, then he may call it, but he should be nowhere near the mound in this situation. Unhitch the piano, and haul you butt to the holding area (library) at 3rd base.