what's up with Div. 1 umps

[GarthB]

As many have argued in the past when the warm-fuzzy advocates repeated their "get it right, get it right, get it right" chant, there is no guarantee that the non-calling umpire who interjects his opinon has it right.

Funny how these same warmfuzzies become silent when we have so clear an example of why they are wrong.

[PeteBooth]

Originally Posted by GarthB

As many have argued in the past when the warm-fuzzy advocates repeated their "get it right, get it right, get it right" chant, there is no guarantee that the non-calling umpire who interjects his opinon has it right.

Funny how these same warmfuzzies become silent when we have so clear an example of why they are wrong.

Gath in order to stop this madness especially in a 2 person crew do you think our protocol has to change?

Ie; You and I have the game. I have the bases and you the dish. one of these swipe tag pulled foot plays is at first and I make an out call.

Coach is "screaming' for me to get help etc.

Now I Know I can basically tell him to "pound salt" but rather than be advisarial I appease the coach and ask you for help.

However, you simply "mirror" my call. If umpire associations in the "beginning" stuck togther and it became known that for all practical purposes the call stands, eventually coaches would get the message and stop asking us to get help.

Is it a good idea or not?

Thanks

Pete Booth

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Gath in order to stop this madness especially in a 2 person crew do you think our protocol has to change?

Ie; You and I have the game. I have the bases and you the dish. one of these swipe tag pulled foot plays is at first and I make an out call.

Coach is "screaming' for me to get help etc.

Now I Know I can basically tell him to "pound salt" but rather than be advisarial I appease the coach and ask you for help.

However, you simply "mirror" my call. If umpire associations in the "beginning" stuck togther and it became known that for all practical purposes the call stands, eventually coaches would get the message and stop asking us to get help.

Is it a good idea or not?

Thanks

Pete Booth

Pete:

I belong to the "Five Calls You Can Change" school. (I don't refer to it as Carl's list, because I've also heard it from professional umpires.)

However, even with some of these, a pulled foot, for example, I will not go to my partner if I'm 100% good with my call, and I have already made my call. Any help on this or a swipe tag, in my practice, must be requested before a call is made.

That said, a decision made to go to your partner, I believe, should result in your partner giving what he has, provided he feels 100% confident of his call. Even a 99% confidence factor should lead to his yielding to your call.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Gath in order to stop this madness especially in a 2 person crew do you think our protocol has to change?

Ie; You and I have the game. I have the bases and you the dish. one of these swipe tag pulled foot plays is at first and I make an out call.

Coach is "screaming' for me to get help etc.

Now I Know I can basically tell him to "pound salt" but rather than be advisarial I appease the coach and ask you for help.

However, you simply "mirror" my call. If umpire associations in the "beginning" stuck togther and it became known that for all practical purposes the call stands, eventually coaches would get the message and stop asking us to get help.

Is it a good idea or not?

Thanks

Pete Booth

Why is telling him to pound sand adversarial yet him coming to you and trying to get you to shop your call NOT adversarial?

I told a coach a few weeks ago in a regional HS final on this VERY situation (pulled foot situation, I'm in A): One call, one umpire. He didn't like it. Tough noogies. He didn't ask again.

[TussAgee11]

But is there a place for asking for help in the realm of game management? Perhaps he wants a check swing appeal on something that was not even close. He is a known problem and will probably get upset if you don't give it to him. So you point to your partner, he gives the SAFE, and we go on. Seems to me that is avoiding a confrentation and not giving the appearance that you are looking for trouble as the umpire.

Just because he asks for help does not mean the call needs to change. I do understand the precedent it sets with that coach, and others, when you go for help on a pulled foot or swipe tag. My point is that in certain situations, from a game management perspective, it may not be a bad idea to make it look like you are discussing the call, even if you know it is not going to be reversed.

I'm not out to please coaches (trust me), but if I can squash a confrentation before it has a chance to stew, I'm all for it.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

But is there a place for asking for help in the realm of game management? Perhaps he wants a check swing appeal on something that was not even close. He is a known problem and will probably get upset if you don't give it to him. So you point to your partner, he gives the SAFE, and we go on. Seems to me that is avoiding a confrentation and not giving the appearance that you are looking for trouble as the umpire.

Just because he asks for help does not mean the call needs to change. I do understand the precedent it sets with that coach, and others, when you go for help on a pulled foot or swipe tag. My point is that in certain situations, from a game management perspective, it may not be a bad idea to make it look like you are discussing the call, even if you know it is not going to be reversed.

I'm not out to please coaches (trust me), but if I can squash a confrentation before it has a chance to stew, I'm all for it.

If, in a Fed game, not allowing an appeal on a check swing creates a confrontation then you're in for a possible long day. If as you say the coach is a known problem this is one of many opportunities to establish yourself quickly, let the coach know you're in charge and get on with it.
And if you're lucky this may give you an early opportunity to eliminate the known problem.
If I'm certain of a call I will not go to my P for help.
If my P agrees with me then all I've done is submitted to a coaches desire and set a precedent for the day and my call stands. No advantage to me.
If my P disagrees then I either have to change my call, which I am confident is right(not good in many ways) or keep the call as is and drag my P into the mess (not good)
The only advantage is that we may placate the coach for the moment but chances are good that we've only fed the little monster and he'll be coming back for more later.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

If, in a Fed game, not allowing an appeal on a check swing creates a confrontation then you're in for a possible long day. If as you say the coach is a known problem this is one of many opportunities to establish yourself quickly, let the coach know you're in charge and get on with it.
And if you're lucky this may give you an early opportunity to eliminate the known problem.
If I'm certain of a call I will not go to my P for help.
If my P agrees with me then all I've done is submitted to a coaches desire and set a precedent for the day and my call stands. No advantage to me.
If my P disagrees then I either have to change my call, which I am confident is right(not good in many ways) or keep the call as is and drag my P into the mess (not good)
The only advantage is that we may placate the coach for the moment but chances are good that we've only fed the little monster and he'll be coming back for more later.

I have and will reject checked swing appeals in FED games. First of all not all of those requests are very legit or credible. Often if the batter flinches they want a request. Now if the bat is clearly out there and I do not see it, I have no problem asking for help with my partner in any position. And if I think he attempted and I see it, I will make the call myself. I have made more of these calls behind the plate on my own in the last few years. I also sell it if the call is close, but clear to me.

Once again, I do not care what a coach thinks. I am not there to appease coaches. I am assigned to do a job and that is what I am going to do. If the coach does not like me, I likely passed many schools to work this game so personally who gives a damn what a particular coach thinks. Now what I will do is hustle, get in position whenever possible and if that is not enough, I will work somewhere else. I used to try to avoid confrontation and it got me no where. Even when I would try, I would somehow get into bigger confrontations. If you have no noticed umpires and officials in different sports follow all the procedures to the letter and they still get ripped by a coach because the call did not go their way. You are never going to make these clowns happy.

Peace

[Mrumpiresir]

I always tell my partners that if I come to them on a checked swing or a pulled foot immediately I want to know what they have because I did not get a good look at the play. If a coach complains and insists I get help, I will go to my P after a short delay but expect him to confirm my call. This usually works. Now if my partner overrules me, I have to go along with his call.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by Mrumpiresir

I always tell my partners that if I come to them on a checked swing or a pulled foot immediately I want to know what they have because I did not get a good look at the play. If a coach complains and insists I get help, I will go to my P after a short delay but expect him to confirm my call. This usually works. Now if my partner overrules me, I have to go along with his call.

I'm confused, but I get confused easily.

I hope you only go to P on check swing appeal if asked and reasonably speaking that is right away. So when would there be such a delay on a check swing that you would expect your P to confirm your call?

If you have made an out call on a play at first I'm assuming you saw an out.
If you go to your P to placate a coach after the out call I would suggest you do this in private conference and not yelling across the infield. If it's in conference then you cannot be overruled and you still have a choice to change the call or not.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mrumpiresir

I always tell my partners that if I come to them on a checked swing or a pulled foot immediately I want to know what they have because I did not get a good look at the play. If a coach complains and insists I get help, I will go to my P after a short delay but expect him to confirm my call. This usually works. Now if my partner overrules me, I have to go along with his call.

If you do not want help, do not ask for help. If you ask me for help, I am giving you what I got. It does not matter what you called.

Peace