Balls hits runner on base

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Let's see, that would include Roder, Evans, the authors of the MLBUM, every MLB umpire, PBUC......I'll help you get the letters out. Let's start with Mike Winters.

I'm not taking anyone's side here. We have umpires quoting 7.09k as "an other fielder had a play" when it doesn't say that, it says "infielder."

7.08b was not being discussed or quoted, it was 7.09k that everyone was so enchanted with here.

CoachJM said 7.09k referred to any fielder, which is incorrect, it says "an infielder."

That is the only part I am disputing here. I'm not going against your "gods" of baseball you listed.

I don't need any help getting any letters out smart guy.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by njdevs00cup

If a batted ball hits a baserunner on the base, is the runner out when:
...

the infield is drawn in and had an opportunity to make a play?

njdevs, can I get a clarification on this situation? As I read it, the infield is in, a batted ball goes past an infielder that had a chance to make a play on the ball and then hits a runner standing on a base, correct?

For example, R2, F6 is playing on the grass, in front of the runner and the batter hits a ball directly towards second base. F6 runs to his left to field the ball and it goes between his legs, hitting R2 who is standing on second base. F1 and F4 had no chance at playing the ball for whatever reason.

Would this be the type of situation you were referring to?

Then, bearing in mind 7.08(f) and 7.09(k) from OBR, and respected rule interpretations, the majority here state that R2 would be out for interference if an outfielder (say, F8 playing shallow and charging in on the hit) would have been able to make a play on the ball that F6 missed. Is this correct or am I missing something else to this puzzle?

[blueump]

Originally Posted by Tim C

How many want to bet that BlueUmp, no matter what documentation is supplied, will NEVER change his mind about his misinterpretation of this rule.

This is a pretty standard happening on internet message boards.

Regards,

Sounds like an immature pot shot to me. Some pose questions and what they would call based on what they know and are actually willing to learn from what is said on this board. I've changed my view on many topics by reading and defending positions this board.

You don't know me at all, and I don't know you. If you feel the need to stoop to this level, you are the one showing how ignorant you really are. Maybe you should attempt to actually add to the intelligent discussion here instead of making personal attacks against someone you don't have a clue about.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I'm not taking anyone's side here. We have umpires quoting 7.09k as "an other fielder had a play" when it doesn't say that, it says "infielder."

7.08b was not being discussed or quoted, it was 7.09k that everyone was so enchanted with here.

CoachJM said 7.09k referred to any fielder, which is incorrect, it says "an infielder."

That is the only part I am disputing here. I'm not going against your "gods" of baseball you listed.

I don't need any help getting any letters out smart guy.

Actually, I was consistently and repeatedly trying to tell BG to stop using 7.09k in this sitch, as it doesn't apply.

[Tim C]

"Sounds like an immature pot shot to me. Some pose questions and what they would call based on what they know and are actually willing to learn from what is said on this board. I've changed my view on many topics by reading and defending positions this board.

"You don't know me at all, and I don't know you. If you feel the need to stoop to this level, you are the one showing how ignorant you really are. Maybe you should attempt to actually add to the intelligent discussion here instead of making personal attacks against someone you don't have a clue about."

First let me wipe the tear from my eye.

There, much better.

IF my post offended you me thinks your skin just may be too thin to be an umpire.

Regards and back to my cave.

[blueump]

Originally Posted by Tim C

"Sounds like an immature pot shot to me. Some pose questions and what they would call based on what they know and are actually willing to learn from what is said on this board. I've changed my view on many topics by reading and defending positions this board.

"You don't know me at all, and I don't know you. If you feel the need to stoop to this level, you are the one showing how ignorant you really are. Maybe you should attempt to actually add to the intelligent discussion here instead of making personal attacks against someone you don't have a clue about."

First let me wipe the tear from my eye.

There, much better.

IF my post offended you me thinks your skin just may be too thin to be an umpire.

Regards and back to my cave.

I never said it offended me. It just showed everyone how immature you really are. You can't add anything substantial to the conversation that was taking place, so you act like the troll you are. You simply attack others in an attempt to make yourself look intelligent. Even my 5th grade students understand that a person who acts that way is lacking in self-esteem.

At least try to post a baseball question or answer so others can learn. That's what this forum is about. I believe that after reading your posts, I actually am dumber than when I started.

Now, back to the point at hand. I am still really trying to learn here and be the best umpire I can be at the levels I do. All my references come from the rulebooks and casebooks that I have. Apparently those are not enough. This JR that everyone is referring to: what's its unabbreviated title, and where can I get one? What other reference materials would a High School umpire consider "absolutely necessary" to improve themselves?

[bigda65]

BU,

Let me ask a question.

R3 and a left handed batter, the shift is on such that the SS and 3B are playing in shallow right field.
Batter hits a ball down the 3B line and hits R3 in fair terrritory
What is your call and why???

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Actually, I was consistently and repeatedly trying to tell BG to stop using 7.09k in this sitch, as it doesn't apply.

My original entry into this fray was only to point out that JM said that in 7.09k it says "any fielder," which is not accurate. Any conjecture as to my agreeing or disagreeing with the interpretation of any other rule is not of my making.

JM said that even if an outfielder has a play on a deflected or ball that passed through an infielder, that a runner is out when hit by the ball. That is false.

All I did was point out what a rule really says, and dispell any notion that it says otherwise. An outfielder who is not stationed in the infield at the TOP is not considered as an infielder for the purposes of rule 7.09k.

[blueump]

Originally Posted by bigda65

BU,

Let me ask a question.

R3 and a left handed batter, the shift is on such that the SS and 3B are playing in shallow right field.
Batter hits a ball down the 3B line and hits R3 in fair terrritory
What is your call and why???

My call in this specific situation (if I'm reading it correctly) would be an out. The rule book I'm using (FED) states that the runner is out if touched by a batted ball in fair territory before it touches or passes an infielder. In the situation you describe, and according to the book, both the SS and 3rd baseman are still considered infielders.

In ORB however (which I'm just becoming familiar with, so I don't have it all down!) they, according to the technical definition of terms, are no longer considered infielders.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by blueump

What other reference materials would a High School umpire consider "absolutely necessary" to improve themselves?

Well, I'd suggest the rules themselves, but that doesn't seem to be working too well so far.



I keed

[blueump]

Originally Posted by LMan

Well, I'd suggest the rules themselves, but that doesn't seem to be working too well so far.



I keed

Okay Lman,

The first time you even post on this topic, and you also take a shot at me. Does it make you feel important?

Get specific "O Wise One". Which FED rule here have I missed? I at least have the guts to post the rule I'm quoting. Lets see if you have the guts to back up your ignorant statement with the rule I've missed.

I'm awaiting your brilliant answer. I'm sure it will be enlightening to us all!

[UmpJM]

SDSteve & mcrowder,

Why do you think 7.09(k) doesn't apply? The very first sentence is:

7.09
It is interference by a batter or a runner when --

(k)A fair ball touches him on fair territory before touching a fielder. ...

Now, that is the exact situation posed in the OP, and 7.09(k) is the most specific rule in OBR pertaining to the OP.

Now the rest of 7.09(k), which talks about exceptions to the basic rule under which the runner would NOT be out, isn't relevant to the OP because the ball was NOT deflected, and, as far as we know, did not go "through or by" a fielder and hit the runner immediately back of him.

I subsequently made the outrageous (to some) assertion that the "through or by" exception could apply, even if the fielder who had the subsequent play was an outfielder rather than an infielder. I wish I hadn't included this statement, not because it is incorrect (I still believe it to be correct) but because it created a tangent to the initial sitch under discussion which seems to have confused rather than clarified the issue at hand. Besides, it's never going to happen - it theoretically could, but it won't.

Taken as a whole, the text of the rules and the Official Interpretations (MLBUM & PBUC) are clear that a runner who is hit by an untouched fair batted ball is out, with the exception of two very narrowly defined situations:

1. It is an IFF AND the batter is touching his base AND does not intentionally touch the ball.

2. The ball has passed between the legs or within reach of a fielder AND hits the runner immediately back of that fielder AND the runner did not intentionally contact the ball AND no other (for now, I'll just say) INfielder had a chance to get a runner out on the play.

JM

[Welpe]

Coach, thanks for the clarification. I owe you a frosty beverage of your choosing.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

SDSteve & mcrowder,

Why do you think 7.09(k) doesn't apply? The very first sentence is:

JM

I am trying to say that the runner in the OP is out. So, to be more specific, the exception pointed to by BZ et all does not apply, meaning the runner is still out. So, technically, you are right that this rule does apply (at least the portion you quoted) ... but it applies to call this runner OUT, not to rule him safe as BZ really seems motivated to do.

[PeteBooth]

Originally Posted by blueump

Apparently those are not enough. This JR that everyone is referring to: what's its unabbreviated title, and where can I get one? What other reference materials would a High School umpire consider "absolutely necessary" to improve themselves?

Reference attached for the purchase of J/R

http://www.rulesofbaseball.com/

NOTE: It's next to impossible to get the Major league baseball Umpires manual referred to as (MLBUM) or Jim Evans annotated (JEA). One must attend PRO School in order to get these materials. In other words one cannot purchase these materials on line as they are not distributed to the general public.

In addition to the J/R the other most notable books are the PBUC manual which you can get on line and Carl Childresses Baseball Rule Differences (BRD) which you can purchase at Officiating.com

Reason for supplemental materials.

As you have already encountered simply reading the OBR rule-book is not enough. It is poorly written and indexed and does not tell the 'complete story"

Case and Point. In order to fully understand the appeal process one needs to know which type of "action" (ie relaxed vs. unrelaxed) is going on. The terms Relaxed and Unrelaxed are not mentioned anywhere in the OBR rule-book.

By purchasing the materials mentioned above, there are case plays (ala the FED case book) so the reader can understand the rule. What better way to understand something then to have case plays to read.

FED / NCAA have their own rule interps. Each has a case book to explain THEIR sets of rules.

Pete Booth