The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Baseball
Register FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 16, 2007, 04:00am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 126
Send a message via AIM to PAT THE REF
Arrow Varsity Partner Help...

Hey Everyone,

I was very excited to be moved from a mid-level freshman game (base job) to a High-Level Varsity Game (plate job) here in NJ today. I have a few questions that I would like everyone’s opinion on the following situations. My biggest downfall is game management and I would like to become better at it, so any advice is greatly appreciated.

Sit 1) Top of the 1st, Questionable strikes at the low point of the knee and the catcher is dropping his glove. Every pitch then is scraped on the ground or dropped… I ball pitches and the coach starts getting on my case… Stuff like… Hey Billy (catcher) where was that one? Looking good? Aww. Come on. Hey Blue! Where was that one? All from the dugout.

Sit 2) My partner on the 3rd base side of the diamond with a R1, double play ball hit to shortstop… Runs over the bag – three feet prior to the runner getting there. Legal slide, no popup but the Shortstop trips over the legs of the runner. NO interference – totally legal slide and just a “trip”. Base umpire calls runner safe due to shortstop never reaching the bag. Then coach goes out to him to argue… From the bench and the stands (they are behind one another)… “that was a rule change! Four years ago! That should have been two! Your are the worst f*cking umpires I have ever seen! We should all just go home!”. Coach returns and we have R1 and R2 now…

Sit 3) Catcher still dropping pitches & missing pitches… From the dugout in the 4th inning… “Call it both ways! Come on now”… Lets Go!....

Sit 4) Catcher in the 5th Inning starts signaling his coach where pitches are and now he holds the glove for a good second on pitches that I have balled. We are talking two balls off the inside corner… Now when the coach asks his catcher… He just shrugs his shoulders…

Sit 5) Check Swing on a Bunt… Batter attempts and moves towards the pitcher – similar to a drag bunt… But at the last second swings the bat along the ground and moves 2-3 feet out of the box… I give a strong – yes he went! And all heck breaks loose… The coach now is screaming that the call was horrible and that I need to get some help… Called strike – no help is EVER given, but I honestly thought he went… Then my partner says, well you cant appeal a bunt… and throws me under the bus.

As you can see, I don’t like to have “rabbit ears”. I know Evans teaches the “four stages” of warning and such but I just don’t like looking for trouble. When it finds me – in my face, words directed at me directly then I can handle it… But about “pot shots” from the dugout… A little help?

Thanks,

Pat
__________________
Pat The Ref
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 16, 2007, 06:48am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: CT
Posts: 2,439
Quote:
Originally Posted by PAT THE REF
Sit 1) Top of the 1st, Questionable strikes at the low point of the knee and the catcher is dropping his glove. Every pitch then is scraped on the ground or dropped… I ball pitches and the coach starts getting on my case… Stuff like… Hey Billy (catcher) where was that one? Looking good? Aww. Come on. Hey Blue! Where was that one? All from the dugout.
At this point, a good stare (mask on) into the dugout would be the correct thing to do (otherwise known as burning the dugout). It's not rabbit ears anymore when they start with "Hey Blue....". Now they are inviting you in!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PAT THE REF
Sit 2) My partner on the 3rd base side of the diamond with a R1, double play ball hit to shortstop… Runs over the bag – three feet prior to the runner getting there. Legal slide, no popup but the Shortstop trips over the legs of the runner. NO interference – totally legal slide and just a “trip”. Base umpire calls runner safe due to shortstop never reaching the bag. Then coach goes out to him to argue… From the bench and the stands (they are behind one another)… “that was a rule change! Four years ago! That should have been two! Your are the worst f*cking umpires I have ever seen! We should all just go home!”. Coach returns and we have R1 and R2 now…
If that crap ("Your are the worst f*cking umpires I have ever seen!") came from the dugout, you should have been dumping people right then and there. If it came from the stands, leave it alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PAT THE REF
Sit 3) Catcher still dropping pitches & missing pitches… From the dugout in the 4th inning… “Call it both ways! Come on now”… Lets Go!....
Well, you didn't stop the BS before, now they are accusing you of cheating. Time to dump someone!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PAT THE REF
Sit 4) Catcher in the 5th Inning starts signaling his coach where pitches are and now he holds the glove for a good second on pitches that I have balled. We are talking two balls off the inside corner… Now when the coach asks his catcher… He just shrugs his shoulders…
Again, you didn't take care of business before so it's just getting worse!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PAT THE REF
Sit 5) Check Swing on a Bunt… Batter attempts and moves towards the pitcher – similar to a drag bunt… But at the last second swings the bat along the ground and moves 2-3 feet out of the box… I give a strong – yes he went! And all heck breaks loose… The coach now is screaming that the call was horrible and that I need to get some help… Called strike – no help is EVER given, but I honestly thought he went… Then my partner says, well you cant appeal a bunt… and throws me under the bus.
I'm confused about your partner throwing you under the bus, did you go for help or did he just shout that out?

Seriously, you need to take care of this BS early and let them know that you will not allow arguing on balls and strikes. All the good instructors tell you not to have rabbit ears but these turkeys invited you into the dugout as I said before.

After "burning the dugout", the next directed comment or coach's comment would require an unmasked visit: "Listen gentlemen/coach, we are not going there today so let's be done with it, understood?", then walk back to the plate. After that, who ever starts up is ejecting themselves - plain and simple.

This is a perfect example of letting the BS go too far. Next time, don't let it escalate to this point and you will be fine.

Regards
__________________
When in doubt, bang 'em out!
Ozzy

Last edited by ozzy6900; Wed May 16, 2007 at 11:00am.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 16, 2007, 07:25am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 18,019
[QUOTE=PAT THE REF]My biggest downfall is game management and I would like to become better at it, so any advice is greatly appreciated. [/quote


Good game management comes from experience. Experience comes from poor game management.

Quote:
I know Evans teaches the “four stages” of warning and such but I just don’t like looking for trouble. When it finds me – in my face, words directed at me directly then I can handle it… But about “pot shots” from the dugout… A little help?
I'm a little confused. You have some advice (from Evans), you chose not to use it, you don't like the results, but you still don't want to use the advice? Maybe I'm just misreading this.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 16, 2007, 07:27am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Washington
Posts: 1,491
Send a message via AIM to RPatrino Send a message via Yahoo to RPatrino
Ozzy said it all!!

My only comment is, if you wait to handle problems until they are in your face, then they will eventually be in your face. It's much better to handle things early and often.
__________________
Bob P.

-----------------------
We are stewards of baseball. Our customers aren't schools or coaches or conferences. Our customer is the game itself.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 16, 2007, 08:04am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Newburgh NY
Posts: 1,822
[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by PAT THE REF
Hey Everyone,

I was very excited to be moved from a mid-level freshman game (base job) to a High-Level Varsity Game (plate job) here in NJ today.
Not to "burst your bubble" but IMO you were moved because others most likely "kicked back' this game.

I know you didn't ask but is seems that your number 1 problem lies in the HS umpires asociation you work in. It sounds like this team behaved that way all season long and no crew did anything about it.

Ozzy gave you a "blow by blow' analysis of what you should have done, but your association is also at fault here.

F2's tactics should have been dealt with from game 1. As mentioned I doubt that this was the first time F2 did what he did.

One difference I have with Ozzy. This was a HS game and even though we are to ignore fans, when you here abusive language coming from the stands, then it's time to go to the home coach and ask him to "get rid" of this individual. Fans can get riled in a hurry and you do not need a "cheerleader' egging everyone on. From the description of the OP it sounds like this type of game could have turned "ugly" in a heartbeat.

Summary: bring this up at your HS association meeting. Also I know you want to move up but when you get a "high level' varsity game this time of year and all along you were doing Freshman / JV there's something "rotten in Denmark"

Pete Booth
__________________
Peter M. Booth
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 16, 2007, 08:17am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 1,772
Ozzy nailed it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PAT THE REF
Hey Everyone,

I was very excited to be moved from a mid-level freshman game (base job) to a High-Level Varsity Game (plate job) here in NJ today. I have a few questions that I would like everyone’s opinion on the following situations. My biggest downfall is game management and I would like to become better at it, so any advice is greatly appreciated.

Sit 1) Top of the 1st, Questionable strikes at the low point of the knee and the catcher is dropping his glove. Every pitch then is scraped on the ground or dropped… I ball pitches and the coach starts getting on my case… Stuff like… Hey Billy (catcher) where was that one? Looking good? Aww. Come on. Hey Blue! Where was that one? All from the dugout.

Sit 2) My partner on the 3rd base side of the diamond with a R1, double play ball hit to shortstop… Runs over the bag – three feet prior to the runner getting there. Legal slide, no popup but the Shortstop trips over the legs of the runner. NO interference – totally legal slide and just a “trip”. Base umpire calls runner safe due to shortstop never reaching the bag. Then coach goes out to him to argue… From the bench and the stands (they are behind one another)… “that was a rule change! Four years ago! That should have been two! Your are the worst f*cking umpires I have ever seen! We should all just go home!”. Coach returns and we have R1 and R2 now…

Sit 3) Catcher still dropping pitches & missing pitches… From the dugout in the 4th inning… “Call it both ways! Come on now”… Lets Go!....

Sit 4) Catcher in the 5th Inning starts signaling his coach where pitches are and now he holds the glove for a good second on pitches that I have balled. We are talking two balls off the inside corner… Now when the coach asks his catcher… He just shrugs his shoulders…

Sit 5) Check Swing on a Bunt… Batter attempts and moves towards the pitcher – similar to a drag bunt… But at the last second swings the bat along the ground and moves 2-3 feet out of the box… I give a strong – yes he went! And all heck breaks loose… The coach now is screaming that the call was horrible and that I need to get some help… Called strike – no help is EVER given, but I honestly thought he went… Then my partner says, well you cant appeal a bunt… and throws me under the bus.

As you can see, I don’t like to have “rabbit ears”. I know Evans teaches the “four stages” of warning and such but I just don’t like looking for trouble. When it finds me – in my face, words directed at me directly then I can handle it… But about “pot shots” from the dugout… A little help?

Thanks,

Pat
Great points above, I would just like to add a point about dealing with F2.

You cannot allow this type of behavior by a catcher.

First time the coach asks where it is ... and F2 doesn't tell the truth - I vocally will tell F2, "we're not putting up with that tonight, you know that pitch was low" or something to that effect.

If he does it again I will give the coach a stare with mask on as Ozzy suggested, but I will also be chewing F2's tail.

All of this can be done between pitches with mask on and most people never know what's going on except the batter who will be loving it!

The next time coach pops a question and F2 shrugs etc., then as Ozzy suggested you go to the coach etc.,

But bottom line is that you do NOT let F2 show you up. And you need to let him know it.

Thanks
DAvid
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 16, 2007, 09:01am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by PAT THE REF
As you can see, I don’t like to have “rabbit ears”. I know Evans teaches the “four stages” of warning and such but I just don’t like looking for trouble. When it finds me – in my face, words directed at me directly then I can handle it… But about “pot shots” from the dugout… A little help?
I have always said that knowing how to handle situations is something that most clinics, especially at the local level, do not teach enough.

In your case you appear to have "learned", or at least were made aware of, an umpiring tool (the Four Stages of Warning by Evans) but chose not to use this tool.

Listen to Evans and other experienced umpires.....it will make your job a lot easier.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 16, 2007, 09:24am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,577
would someone mind detailing the Four Stages of Warning? or post a link?
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 16, 2007, 09:37am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Glen Burnie, Md
Posts: 371
I would like to see the 4 stages also. I would also like to add you guys are giving great advise!
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 16, 2007, 10:19am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,057
Send a message via Yahoo to UmpJM
Cool

1. Ignore

2. Acknowledge

3. Warn

4. Eject

JM
__________________
Finally, be courteous, impartial and firm, and so compel respect from all.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 16, 2007, 10:31am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Mizzouah!
Posts: 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by PAT THE REF
Hey Everyone,

I was very excited to be moved from a mid-level freshman game (base job) to a High-Level Varsity Game (plate job) here in NJ today. I have a few questions that I would like everyone’s opinion on the following situations. My biggest downfall is game management and I would like to become better at it, so any advice is greatly appreciated.

Sit 1) Top of the 1st, Questionable strikes at the low point of the knee and the catcher is dropping his glove. Every pitch then is scraped on the ground or dropped… I ball pitches and the coach starts getting on my case… Stuff like… Hey Billy (catcher) where was that one? Looking good? Aww. Come on. Hey Blue! Where was that one? All from the dugout.

Sit 2) My partner on the 3rd base side of the diamond with a R1, double play ball hit to shortstop… Runs over the bag – three feet prior to the runner getting there. Legal slide, no popup but the Shortstop trips over the legs of the runner. NO interference – totally legal slide and just a “trip”. Base umpire calls runner safe due to shortstop never reaching the bag. Then coach goes out to him to argue… From the bench and the stands (they are behind one another)… “that was a rule change! Four years ago! That should have been two! Your are the worst f*cking umpires I have ever seen! We should all just go home!”. Coach returns and we have R1 and R2 now…

Sit 3) Catcher still dropping pitches & missing pitches… From the dugout in the 4th inning… “Call it both ways! Come on now”… Lets Go!....

Sit 4) Catcher in the 5th Inning starts signaling his coach where pitches are and now he holds the glove for a good second on pitches that I have balled. We are talking two balls off the inside corner… Now when the coach asks his catcher… He just shrugs his shoulders…

Sit 5) Check Swing on a Bunt… Batter attempts and moves towards the pitcher – similar to a drag bunt… But at the last second swings the bat along the ground and moves 2-3 feet out of the box… I give a strong – yes he went! And all heck breaks loose… The coach now is screaming that the call was horrible and that I need to get some help… Called strike – no help is EVER given, but I honestly thought he went… Then my partner says, well you cant appeal a bunt… and throws me under the bus.

As you can see, I don’t like to have “rabbit ears”. I know Evans teaches the “four stages” of warning and such but I just don’t like looking for trouble. When it finds me – in my face, words directed at me directly then I can handle it… But about “pot shots” from the dugout… A little help?

Thanks,

Pat
1. Warn

2. Eject, No need to cuss

3. Don't pay attention

4. Don't pay attention unless the catcher and/or the coach aruges about the call every single pitch, then I'll say something to the catcher.

5. Only give a "no signal" or a out signal if your partner ask for it.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 16, 2007, 10:45am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Little Elm, TX (NW Dallas)
Posts: 4,047
Quote:
Originally Posted by budjones05
1. Warn

2. Eject, No need to cuss

3. Don't pay attention

4. Don't pay attention unless the catcher and/or the coach aruges about the call every single pitch, then I'll say something to the catcher.

5. Only give a "no signal" or a out signal if your partner ask for it.
Who the heck are you ejecting in 2 when a fan cusses? Fans? I hear no stinkin fans.
__________________
"Many baseball fans look upon an umpire as a sort of necessary evil to the luxury of baseball, like the odor that follows an automobile." - Hall of Fame Pitcher Christy Mathewson
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 16, 2007, 10:47am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,577
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachJM
1. Ignore

2. Acknowledge

3. Warn

4. Eject

JM

Thanks, John


Man, I just saved a ton of money on my umpiring by not going to JEAPU!
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 16, 2007, 10:48am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,716
I have often used the phrase that "nobody goes to watch the officials" however, that applies to contests that are played by the rules, by participants that usually understand the rules.

Now there is your game. The particpants did not understand the intent or application of several of the rules and therefore it was necessary for you and your partner to "step up to the plate."

Do you want to move up?

Well the first thing you have to learn is to take control of YOUR game, get it back into line with the rules and sit back and not be noticed. Just because the other official is doing that level of ball, don't assume he belongs there.

You were the UIC for that game and needed to put an end to questioning of your authority right from the get go. That alone, would have probably put an end to most of what went on in the game.

You can't make your partners calls for him, but save that argument for the parking lot after the game. Don't let anyone make dispairing remarks about the officiating team out on the field. protect your partner no matter how good, or bad they may be. And don't second guess your decisions. you called the strike and that was it. Again, they probably would'nt have questioned your judgement had you take care of business earlier.

As already stated, this was the experience, that will give you experience, to become more experienced. Use it wisely and grow to become the best you can.

Good Luck
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 16, 2007, 02:02pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 605
I wasn't at your game, so I won't post in direct response to your situation.

However, I will say this:

Experience has taught me that there are games when one (the umpire) needs to look for an ejection. You know: the type of game where everyone on a specific team is whining about everything...and you (the umpire) are getting more and more agitated. No single argument or whining has been enough to warrant an EJ...but collectively, they are really pissing you off. You notice that one player's whining, just encourages another player to whine, etc.

Its in these games, experience has taught me, that an ejection can do a lot of good. Its amazing the effect that one ejection can have on a team. I've had many a game where one ejection has served notice to the team that "you're not tolerating anymore" and as a result has led to a rather peaceful rest of the afternoon.

However, I readily admit, that this does not always work. (See the thread about 6 EJs in one game) However, it often works, especially on the high school level. (And frankly, if it doesn't work...I just keep EJing until it does work...as the OP did in the 6 EJs thread).

Learning how and when to EJ is very difficult skill to master. With that said, I think that in your game, you needed to find someone, somewhere, and tossed him. Even though no profanity was used by a player/coach...the EJ could simply be for prolonged and continued arguing of balls and strikes.

Sometimes...one needs to put the hammer down.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
First varsity three man... Scatmaster Basketball 5 Sun Jan 21, 2007 12:20pm
FED, JV and Varsity DaveASA/FED Basketball 8 Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:26am
first varsity game rcwilco Basketball 9 Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:56pm
Varsity Observations rainmaker Basketball 20 Fri Dec 27, 2002 12:09pm
First Varsity Game glind Basketball 12 Fri Jan 12, 2001 08:50pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:28pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1