Missed first base

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by BigGuy

If you go on the premise that 8-4-1f (below) is true and the opposite of OUT is SAFE, a runner is not OUT or SAFE until one of two criteria have occurred. The fielder, with the ball touches 1B before the BR touches 1B. This results in an OUT call. If the opposite is true, the BR is ruled SAFE. However, for a BR that runs over 1B, and after he runs it over, without touching it, F3, catches the ball while touching 1B, this then meets the criteria of 8-4-1f and declaring BR OUT. People quote the safe/appeal the preferred method, I just have not been taught using this particular technique. Personally, I think (but can be convinced otherwise) that the safe/appeal method (but only at 1B), is an unfair disadvantage to the defense since the onus should be on the BR to ACTUALLY TOUCH THE BASE. If the defense has done what they were supposed to do, make play, throw to 1B, catch ball with foot on base and runner has not even touched the base, basically he (the runner) gets a free pass unless defense realizes mistake and appeals.

f. after a dropped third strike (see 8-4-1e) or a fair hit, if the ball held by any fielder touches the batter before the batter touches first base; or if any fielder, while holding the ball in his grasp, touches first base or touches first base with the ball before the batter-runner touches first base: or

If the analogy I used is true, how can F3 touches 1B with ball before BR TOUCHES 1B be anything other than OUT? The interesting item regarding this topic is the following. FED rules never refer to the word safe, only out. The word does not even appear in the book, except on page 71, signals. Most of the posters do not like the idea of a no-call and that it is a signal to the defense that the runner missed the base. It's also possible that neither the runner or the fielder touched the base. Who are you tipping off?

I see the logic both ways. I just don't agree with one of the ways.

I think this mechanic is weighted heavily in favor of the offense and I don't like it at all, however I do use the mechanic since it is the accepted practice.

I think a 'no call' would be much more fair and true to the intent of the rules.

Personally I think Evans and J/R dropped the ball on this one.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by GarthB

according to MLB, the owners of the game and rules.

I think I'm in big big trouble

I've been playing baseball all my life and I've never payed MLB a dime in royalties for the use of 'their game'


They may be the accepted authority when it comes to rules and umpire mechanics but unless you were using "owners" in the loosest context possible, it is an absolute misstatement to say they are the owners of the game and rules.

[Forest Ump]

Originally Posted by Tom H.

As Tim said: Call him 'Safe' and wait for a proper Appeal. That being said, IF the runner is past the bag and then the throw arrives --- this is a continuation of the original play (the attempt to retire BR before he reaches the base) and NOT an Appeal.
Remember, an Appeal must be an "unmistakeable act" which this throw (IMHO) is not.
Now if F3 should tag the BR before he touches the bag -- or the bag while making an Appeal (Blue! he missed the Bag!) now he is out.

This IS how it is taught.

Does it happen often? Not in my experence! Usually the BR returns to the bag before anyone even thinks about an appeal.

Thanks Tom. That's the kind of information this thread needed to be complete.

[umpduck11]

Hands are part of the bat..... Feet are part of the base.

As Ricky Ricardo would say " Aye yai yai yai yai ".

[LMan]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

I think a 'no call' would be much more fair and true to the intent of the rules.

Personally I think Evans and J/R dropped the ball on this one.

Oh, ooooooooookaaaaaaaaaaaay.


I think this statement says it all.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

I think I'm in big big trouble

I've been playing baseball all my life and I've never payed MLB a dime in royalties for the use of 'their game'


They may be the accepted authority when it comes to rules and umpire mechanics but unless you were using "owners" in the loosest context possible, it is an absolute misstatement to say they are the owners of the game and rules.

An absolute mistatement? No, I stated what I meant.

An incorrect statement? I suppose it depends on what is meant when one says "baseball."

As far as the rules, there is not doubt to whom they belong. Check your rule book for under whose permission they are published.

Think it's a coincidence that Sporting News stopped publishing the rulebook when MLB decided to publish it?

Do you think the rules are in public domain? Trying printing and selling them.

BTW: If you've been purchasing rule books, you've paid MLB more than a dime in "royalties."

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

Personally I think Evans and J/R dropped the ball on this one.

If you think this started with Evans and J/R you've lost sight of the ball.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

I think this mechanic is weighted heavily in favor of the offense and I don't like it at all, however I do use the mechanic since it is the accepted practice.

I think a 'no call' would be much more fair and true to the intent of the rules.

Personally I think Evans and J/R dropped the ball on this one.

Don,


The runner already knows damned well whether or not he missed the base. To make no declaration at all on the play alerts the defense that there's a potential appeal. All plays on a runner require a call of some kind. Since the runner is safe until properly appealed this is the only mechanic that wouldn't have us playing the 10th man on defense and alerting the rest of the defense that something is amiss on the play.



Tim.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Well put, Tim.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Well put, Paul.

[jkumpire]

I beleive like almost everyone else here that the safe call is the proper call.

But we have to remember that most guys who do Baseball these days on the HS level use FED more than anyother rule set, and FED has made a mess of this interp.

Further, in their embarassment of an Umpire's Manual (though it is getting better) and a Case Book that is not as good as it should be, it gives the average FED ump no guidence on this play. This is one time where if FED would add the right interp. and mechanic for this play, the issue is understood and called uniformly.

The guys in this poster's association are not on the same level of understanding as most of us who are on this board. They are closer to the level of most HS umpires who have no clue about the subtle nuances of calling the game, and FED needs to help them learn what we know. Most HS umpires I know would fight you tooth and nail on this mechanic because it is counter-intuitive to what they have known about the rules of baseball.

To prove it, if you try to tell them you make a safe call, the first response would most likely be: "Then why don't we make a safe call when the runner comes home and misses the plate?" We just have too many FED guys who are ignorant of finer points of umpiring.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

I think I'm in big big trouble

I've been playing baseball all my life and I've never payed MLB a dime in royalties for the use of 'their game'


They may be the accepted authority when it comes to rules and umpire mechanics but unless you were using "owners" in the loosest context possible, it is an absolute misstatement to say they are the owners of the game and rules.

You're funny. I'd almost think this was serious if it wasn't so ludicrous.

PS - if you've been playing any kind of ORGANIZED baseball, then eventually, some of your dimes have made their way into MLB pockets. Check your rulebooks, equipment, etc.

[greymule]

Did you only do FED during the brief but ill-fated "Accidental Appeal" period?

Yes. Actually, a more precise term might be "accidental force" (or, for purists, "accidental force or before-the-BR-reaches 1B" period).

I'm glad Fed dumped that rule. It was an odd exception to OBR. The J/R explanation simply reinforces what had long been practice in OBR.

In MLB, the play does not occur often, but if you watch enough games, you'll see it. Most people who frequent this board have seen MLB players beat the throw but miss 1B, and they are routinely called safe until the appeal, which incidentally has to be a tag as long as the runner has simply overrun. In a Phillies' game a few years ago, the BR beat the throw but stepped over the bag and overran several yards. F3 had left the bag after he caught the throw, but he then quickly returned to step on 1B and hold the ball up for the umpire to see. Seemed like an appeal to me. No call. Then he ran and tagged the returning runner. Out.

[blueump]

Originally Posted by greymule

[B]
In a Phillies' game a few years ago, the BR beat the throw but stepped over the bag and overran several yards. F3 had left the bag after he caught the throw, but he then quickly returned to step on 1B and hold the ball up for the umpire to see. Seemed like an appeal to me. No call. Then he ran and tagged the returning runner. Out.

I'm trying to actually learn here...

If the runner had already returned to first however, would they have called him safe?

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by blueump

I'm trying to actually learn here...

If the runner had already returned to first however, would they have called him safe?

Yes, they would have.