Missed first base

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by greymule

Did anyone cite the code in this?

In OBR, it's a missed base, but last I remember, in Fed the BR was out if he missed 1B and F3 then caught the ball. Did Fed change their rule?

Really ... so if BR misses first base and is 10 steps past, and F3 then catches the ball on the bag, based on this axiom, you rule an out?

Yes, at least when I used to do Fed.

Did you only do FED during the brief but ill-fated "Accidental Appeal" period? If so, you're right, but that ruling didn't last long, and exists in NO code that I'm aware of currently.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by BigGuy

it's because that's the way I was originally taught - runner doesn't touch base but passes it, I was taught, don't make SAFE call. Since joining this forum I have seen many say the way to do is call the runner safe, then let defense appeal the missed base. I have been trying to get clarification from some in our organization, but I haven't gotten any response. However, I am beginning to lean in the direction of the safe/appeal. I'm still not 100% convinced it's right to call a runner safe that hasn't touched the base, but I'm getting there and definitely see the logic.

You're calling him safe because he beat the throw, and is not yet out. And if the folks that taught you the mechanic would attend any clinics outside your organization, they would be educated in the way we are supposed to call this situation.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by BigGuy

If you want to call it out on appeal, fine. We don't know how close the foot on foot and ball to glove were apart. If it's bang bang, I call out. Given that,
it's because that's the way I was originally taught - runner doesn't touch base but passes it, I was taught, don't make SAFE call. Since joining this forum I have seen many say the way to do is call the runner safe, then let defense appeal the missed base. I have been trying to get clarification from some in our organization, but I haven't gotten any response. However, I am beginning to lean in the direction of the safe/appeal. I'm still not 100% convinced it's right to call a runner safe that hasn't touched the base, but I'm getting there and definitely see the logic.

BG,


This is from Evans. In most umpire's opinions this is as definitive as it gets.


“SAFE” is a declaration by the umpire that a runner is entitled to the base for which he was trying.

Professional umpires are trained to render the "safe" signal and voice declaration at first base even though the batter-runner missed the base but is considered past the base when the tag of first base is made. This becomes an appeal play and the batter-runner would subsequently be called out for failure to properly touch the base. This is the proper mechanical procedure at all bases involving force plays. On plays which require a tag, professional umpires are instructed to make no call until the runner legally touches the base or the runner is tagged before legally touching the base.


Tim.

Originally Posted by LMan

The present mechanic is to signal SAFE, and await an appeal (if there is one). The runner is considered safe when his body passes over the bag. Again, it is up to the defense to recognize that the runner missed the bag and to react accordingly. This goes for all codes AFAIK.

BG, I dont see how your method can work in real life. Runner steps over the bag, then 10 steps later the ball arrives at the mitt and you call OUT? Then I guess you are shouting "he missed the bag!" to the horde of offensive coaches who are having heart-attacks on the spot? You cant call OUT-he missed the bag at the time, because the ball hasnt arrived yet....

I know you said 'banger' for the OUT call, but if there's no one accepted mechanic, then we dont know how close the play has to be to call it one way or the other. Doesnt work. The runner either missed the bag before the throw, or he didnt.

If you go on the premise that 8-4-1f (below) is true and the opposite of OUT is SAFE, a runner is not OUT or SAFE until one of two criteria have occurred. The fielder, with the ball touches 1B before the BR touches 1B. This results in an OUT call. If the opposite is true, the BR is ruled SAFE. However, for a BR that runs over 1B, and after he runs it over, without touching it, F3, catches the ball while touching 1B, this then meets the criteria of 8-4-1f and declaring BR OUT. People quote the safe/appeal the preferred method, I just have not been taught using this particular technique. Personally, I think (but can be convinced otherwise) that the safe/appeal method (but only at 1B), is an unfair disadvantage to the defense since the onus should be on the BR to ACTUALLY TOUCH THE BASE. If the defense has done what they were supposed to do, make play, throw to 1B, catch ball with foot on base and runner has not even touched the base, basically he (the runner) gets a free pass unless defense realizes mistake and appeals.

f. after a dropped third strike (see 8-4-1e) or a fair hit, if the ball held by any fielder touches the batter before the batter touches first base; or if any fielder, while holding the ball in his grasp, touches first base or touches first base with the ball before the batter-runner touches first base: or

If the analogy I used is true, how can F3 touches 1B with ball before BR TOUCHES 1B be anything other than OUT? The interesting item regarding this topic is the following. FED rules never refer to the word safe, only out. The word does not even appear in the book, except on page 71, signals. Most of the posters do not like the idea of a no-call and that it is a signal to the defense that the runner missed the base. It's also possible that neither the runner or the fielder touched the base. Who are you tipping off?

I see the logic both ways. I just don't agree with one of the ways.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by BigGuy

If the analogy I used is true, how can F3 touches 1B with ball before BR TOUCHES 1B be anything other than OUT?

Because J/R and other AOs stress that in this case the BR has 'acquired' the bag, subject to appeal. 1B is unique in that the BR can overrun and not be tagged out (assuming no turn to 2B), so an instant return to 1B is not required.

Your cites show where AOs have established a standard mechanic and ruling for a 'gray area'/potential problem area of the rules. This mechanic isn't that new, Im amused that its still being 'debated' anywhere. If your assoc wants to say J/R and Evans are FOS on this one, thats your biz, I suppose.

If this is how yall do it, then whats your association's standard for when to call OUT and when SAFE? When the BR is 1 step past the bag? Only over the bag? 2 steps past the bag? What if he falls down, as in the OP?


What this about 'tipping off?' That phrase appears nowhere in my post. You tip nothing, you are stating a fact: the BR has acquired the base, subject to appeal.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BigGuy

If you go on the premise that 8-4-1f (below) is true and the opposite of OUT is SAFE, a runner is not OUT or SAFE until one of two criteria have occurred.

There are case plays where a runner misses a base to which he is forced (and I'm not trying to start the "a BR in not forced to first" debate), the fielder touches the base and the runner is NOT out.

See, for example, 8.4.2A and 8.4.2B

[mcrowder]

I give up. You've been told the answer several times. You've been given as authoritative source as possible in this matter. Yet you continue to disbelieve. There's a word for that.

LMan - don't feed the trolls.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

LMan - don't feed the trolls.

Yeah, my error. Another for the box.

Originally Posted by LMan

Because J/R and other AOs stress that in this case the BR has 'acquired' the bag, subject to appeal. 1B is unique in that the BR can overrun and not be tagged out (assuming no turn to 2B), so an instant return to 1B is not required.

Your cites show where AOs have established a standard mechanic and ruling for a 'gray area'/potential problem area of the rules. This mechanic isn't that new, Im amused that its still being 'debated' anywhere. If your assoc wants to say J/R and Evans are FOS on this one, thats your biz, I suppose.

If this is how yall do it, then whats your association's standard for when to call OUT and when SAFE? When the BR is 1 step past the bag? Only over the bag? 2 steps past the bag? What if he falls down, as in the OP?


What this about 'tipping off?' That phrase appears nowhere in my post. You tip nothing, you are stating a fact: the BR has acquired the base, subject to appeal.

I understand fully what you are saying. I have not been given any indication on how our association treats the issue. The one guy I contacted wouldn't give me his opinion until he had discussed it with others, because even he admitted there were varying opinions. Just because J/R and Evans say this is the way to do it, doesn't make it so unless some group actually adopts these methods as gospel. It would certainly be a lot easier for all of us. In reality, the likelihood of that happening is between slim and none. I am all in favor of standardizing.

[Tom H.]

Originally Posted by BigGuy

If you want to call it out on appeal, fine. We don't know how close the foot on foot and ball to glove were apart. If it's bang bang, I call out. Given that,
it's because that's the way I was originally taught - runner doesn't touch base but passes it, I was taught, don't make SAFE call. Since joining this forum I have seen many say the way to do is call the runner safe, then let defense appeal the missed base. I have been trying to get clarification from some in our organization, but I haven't gotten any response. However, I am beginning to lean in the direction of the safe/appeal. I'm still not 100% convinced it's right to call a runner safe that hasn't touched the base, but I'm getting there and definitely see the logic.

As Tim said: Call him 'Safe' and wait for a proper Appeal. That being said, IF the runner is past the bag and then the throw arrives --- this is a continuation of the original play (the attempt to retire BR before he reaches the base) and NOT an Appeal.
Remember, an Appeal must be an "unmistakeable act" which this throw (IMHO) is not.
Now if F3 should tag the BR before he touches the bag -- or the bag while making an Appeal (Blue! he missed the Bag!) now he is out.

This IS how it is taught.

Does it happen often? Not in my experence! Usually the BR returns to the bag before anyone even thinks about an appeal.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by BigGuy

I understand fully what you are saying. I have not been given any indication on how our association treats the issue. The one guy I contacted wouldn't give me his opinion until he had discussed it with others, because even he admitted there were varying opinions. Just because J/R and Evans say this is the way to do it, doesn't make it so unless some group actually adopts these methods as gospel. It would certainly be a lot easier for all of us. In reality, the likelihood of that happening is between slim and none. I am all in favor of standardizing.

Who's opinion are you going to go with?...Some dude leading your assn or Jim Evans...I'll tell you one thing that if you use the Jim Evans mechanic and you give the reason above that is verbatim from Evans, you'll be held in higher regard for adopting Evans mechanic versus what some other guy at the local tavern tells you. I would say there are a few groups who's adopted Evans mechanics. So when you say: Just because J/R and Evans say this is the way to do it, doesn't make it so unless some group actually adopts these methods as gospel Would Major League Baseball be an okay group to adopt his mechanics?? just curious

Originally Posted by Tom H.

As Tim said: Call him 'Safe' and wait for a proper Appeal. That being said, IF the runner is past the bag and then the throw arrives --- this is a continuation of the original play (the attempt to retire BR before he reaches the base) and NOT an Appeal.
Remember, an Appeal must be an "unmistakeable act" which this throw (IMHO) is not.
Now if F3 should tag the BR before he touches the bag -- or the bag while making an Appeal (Blue! he missed the Bag!) now he is out.

This IS how it is taught.

Does it happen often? Not in my experence! Usually the BR returns to the bag before anyone even thinks about an appeal.

Thank you. I appreciate an honest answer without the sarcasm.

[Tom H.]

Originally Posted by BigGuy

Thank you. I appreciate an honest answer without the sarcasm.

You are welcome.
You actually make a lot of the same arguments against this mechanic/call that I made/heard when I was first instructed on it. Had to shake my head many times - take myself in a corner and have a little talk.

Then I got it. I guess I had enough (well respected) instructers inculcate me until I "Drank the Kool Aid"

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by Tom H.

until I "Drank the Kool Aid"

Sometimes it's not a bad path...if it's a winning path

[Tom H.]

Originally Posted by GarthB

This is a misuse of the phrase. The phrase is correctly used when referring to the acceptance of myth, or misguided faith over facts.

Calling the runner safe in this situation and awaiting an appeal is the facutal, accepted and expected way to handle this according to MLB, the owners of the game and rules.

OH NO! The Phrase Police!








Way to stay on the topic