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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 02, 2007, 04:19pm
BigGuy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David B
But don't forget the whole penalty though which states "unless the offense is judged to be of a minor nature."

Its all about judgement and game management. If you want to call nothing you can, if you want to call an out you can, and if you want to restrict someone to the dugout you can. (and all of this is "by rule")

I've had this happen in games and I'm like Coach JM in that I've often treated it like they are loose equipment which by rule gives you the right to call an out. (if you feel its deserved)

Depends on if I've warned the coach or not etc.,

Thanks
David
Re-read penalty for 3-3-1j in FED. Specifically for 3-3-1j - COACHES WHO VIOLATE -TWO OPTIONS ONLY RESTRICT, EJECT

VERBATIM
For coaches who violate g, h, i, j, k, or l, the umpire may (1) restrict the offender to bench/dugout for the remainder of the game or (2) eject the offender. Any coach restricted to the bench shall be ejected for further misconduct. A coach may leave the bench/dugout to attend to a player who becomes ill or injured. This is not one of those "judged to be a minor offense"

The rules here are different for players as opposed to coaches -
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 02, 2007, 04:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigGuy
Re-read penalty for 3-3-1j in FED. Specifically for 3-3-1j - COACHES WHO VIOLATE -TWO OPTIONS ONLY RESTRICT, EJECT

VERBATIM
For coaches who violate g, h, i, j, k, or l, the umpire may (1) restrict the offender to bench/dugout for the remainder of the game or (2) eject the offender. Any coach restricted to the bench shall be ejected for further misconduct. A coach may leave the bench/dugout to attend to a player who becomes ill or injured. This is not one of those "judged to be a minor offense"

The rules here are different for players as opposed to coaches -
I know what the rules states; however, if you read 3-3-1a, what does it state? Penalty is ..... a warning!

As mentioned throughout this thread, its NOT clear for this exact play.

There the umpire is left to use his judgment (which is why he is there to start with)

But if the umpire judges it to be "minor" by nature he is instructed to not eject the offender. The umpire may warn the offender and then eject him if he repeats the action.

The section that you state verbatim says the umpire "may" restrict or eject.

The key word is "may" - does not state shall, or should, but "may".

Thus my post above about being judgement all the way.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 02, 2007, 05:07pm
BigGuy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David B
I know what the rules states; however, if you read 3-3-1a, what does it state? Penalty is ..... a warning!

As mentioned throughout this thread, its NOT clear for this exact play.

There the umpire is left to use his judgment (which is why he is there to start with)

But if the umpire judges it to be "minor" by nature he is instructed to not eject the offender. The umpire may warn the offender and then eject him if he repeats the action.

The section that you state verbatim says the umpire "may" restrict or eject.

The key word is "may" - does not state shall, or should, but "may".

Thus my post above about being judgement all the way.
What I quoted only applies to COACHES, who should know better and thus are held to a different standard. The coach was the subject of this thread. What it doesn't say is MAY WARN, MAY RESTRICT, OR MAY EJECT. If that was an option for coaches, it would say so. It doesn't, therefore it is not an option. If a coach violates 3-3-1j, the umpire can restrict ot eject as his only options. A player who violates 3-3-1j may be warned or ejected.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 02, 2007, 07:17pm
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Location: Mississippi
Posts: 1,772
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigGuy
What I quoted only applies to COACHES, who should know better and thus are held to a different standard. The coach was the subject of this thread. What it doesn't say is MAY WARN, MAY RESTRICT, OR MAY EJECT. If that was an option for coaches, it would say so. It doesn't, therefore it is not an option. If a coach violates 3-3-1j, the umpire can restrict ot eject as his only options. A player who violates 3-3-1j may be warned or ejected.
Okay I'll beat the dead horse with you.

Rule 3-3-1 states "a coach, player or substitute etc., "

That is talking about coaches being out of the dugout which is
3-3-1a

Penalty "at the end of playing action, the umpire shall issue a warning to the coach of the team involved etc.,

Now that is talking about a coach leaving the dugout and is pretty clear that you can issue a warning.

Now I know you quoted section 3-3-1j etc., and the penalty but therein lies the discrepancy - so until we get further interpretations by rule I can warn the coach in the play that is mentioned to start the thread.

Thanks
David
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 03, 2007, 07:10am
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Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 17,575
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigGuy
What I quoted only applies to COACHES, who should know better and thus are held to a different standard. The coach was the subject of this thread. What it doesn't say is MAY WARN, MAY RESTRICT, OR MAY EJECT. If that was an option for coaches, it would say so. It doesn't, therefore it is not an option. If a coach violates 3-3-1j, the umpire can restrict ot eject as his only options. A player who violates 3-3-1j may be warned or ejected.
Look at case 3.3.1L. It says that the coach may be warned, restricted or ejected. I know the case deals with rule 3-3-1g, not 3-3-1j, but both are in the same "section" of the penalty clauses.

The wording in the penaly of "restrict or eject" coaches is only to give the *additional* option of restricting. A player can be warned or ejected. A coach can be warned, restricted or ejected. THere's only one time (iirc) a player can be restricted, and this isn't it.
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