FEDlandia FPSR

[jkumpire]

A question for our Fed folks here:

How do you call/teach the FPSR?

Q- R1, 1 out. BR hits to F4, who throws to F6 at 2B. F6 has one foot on the bag, 1 foot outside the baseline (i.e. to the outfield).
R1 slides with lead foot to the outfield side of the bag, but not to the bag. He makes no contact or alters the play of F6 making the turn. You as the PU or BU based on the throw:

A. R1 did not slide into the bag, dead ball, R1's out and BR is out.
B. R1 made no contact with the fielder and did not alter the play of F6. No FPSR violation.

I'll withold my comment for now. Thank you for yours.

[DG]

Originally Posted by PWL

I've been told B. Go figure..........

Who told you? R1 did not slide directly to the bag, or slide away from the fielder.

[UmpJM]

DG,

Please expound.

I'm new to umpiring and I'll be doing my 1st "real" NFHS games this year (probably just Frosh & JV).

The last five years I've coached summer youth (13-14 yr. olds) travel leagues, some of which alledgedly played under FED rules. In five years, I've seen an FPSR called exactly once and have had one coaching colleague ask me about an FPSR call that occurred in one of his games. First time he's ever seen it called, & he's been doing it longer than I have.

SO, I went & read the FED rule & the case plays, and I'm not sure how I would call this in a game.

I would be inclined to select jkumpire's "B", though I would add "...and executed a legal slide." to the end of the first sentence of "B". In combination with the rule 2 definition of a legal slide, I think that is what the text of the FPSR rule says. It also strikes me as the "right" call from an intent perspective - not to mention it "feels" right, to me.

So, if you think he should be out, please explain. I find the rule ambiguously worded and don't have exceptional confidence in my interpretation. So, if you've got a different train of thought, let's hear it.

JM

[David B]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

A question for our Fed folks here:

How do you call/teach the FPSR?

Q- R1, 1 out. BR hits to F4, who throws to F6 at 2B. F6 has one foot on the bag, 1 foot outside the baseline (i.e. to the outfield).
R1 slides with lead foot to the outfield side of the bag, but not to the bag. He makes no contact or alters the play of F6 making the turn. You as the PU or BU based on the throw:

A. R1 did not slide into the bag, dead ball, R1's out and BR is out.
B. R1 made no contact with the fielder and did not alter the play of F6. No FPSR violation.

I'll withold my comment for now. Thank you for yours.

I put my first answer to this on the other thread by mistake but will reiterate it here.

You included the key words according to FED in your first statements - "there was no contact or alteration of play"

Thus you have no FPSR. FED changed this a couple of years ago with interpretations - I'll have to check my books and get the exact rulings but bottom line - as long as the slide is legal and no alteration or contact - play on.

Anytime its an illegal slide - automatically FPSR.

Thanks
David

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by DG

Who told you? R1 did not slide directly to the bag, or slide away from the fielder.

There's also a rule about a 45 foot running lane to first. If the runner is outside this lane but does not alter the throw or in no way impedes a fielder or the play do you invoke the penalty?
I don't.
What if a runner slides in to 2nd spikes up or does a pop up slide and no one is covering the bag. Do you peg him for unsportsmanlike conduct?

No contact, no altering of play, no harm.....no foul

[justanotherblue]

The best way to approach it is to use common sense. If you lack in that department, then Sorry, can't help much. The intent of the rule is to protect the student athlete. Just as in NCAA, remember that phrase, you can't go wrong. If your a rule book ump, your heading for a lot of arguments in your career. If you can apply the rule with the "spirit and intent" in mind, than you most likely don't. R1 didn't alter anything, simply sliding with his lead foot to the outside of the bag shouldn't trigger anything. Where is his body? If it's over the bag, nothing. Sliding with his body outside the bag should and will, NCAA as well as FED. Protect the fielder. Also, remember in FED, R1 can't slide through the bag and make contact with F6 behind the bag. If F6 is in front of the bag, again, you have nothing. In NCAA R1 can now slide through the bag. Seems some coaches were teaching their kids to stay behind the bag for the interference...NO Needless to say, when they moved up, they couldn't turn a pivot. Duh. Hope that helps

[GarthB]

From the 2207 NFHS Test, part 1


Q. 89 A runner is out when he slides illegally even though he made no contact with a fielder nor altered the actions of the fielder who was making the play.

Fed answer: False.

[etn_ump]

You guys are making this a whole lot more complicated than it is.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by GarthB

From the 2207 NFHS Test, part 1


Q. 89 A runner is out when he slides illegally even though he made no contact with a fielder nor altered the actions of the fielder who was making the play.

Fed answer: False.

Right. But, does that apply to the roll-block, pop-up, beyond the base slides only (which contains the "and makes contact" wording in the slide definition), or does it also apply to the "on a force play slide directly to the base" slide, which does not contain the "contact" provision?

I'm not disagreeing, I'm seeking clarification. Like CoachJM, I find the wording in 8-4-2b confusing, especially when combined with Kyle McNeely's (?) interp of many years ago on one of these sites that contact was required.

I do know that NCAA changed the rule this year so contact / alteration is required, but it was clear at the clinic that any benefit of the doubt went to the fielder. In fact, one example was shown in which I could not see any contact / alteration, but they wanted it called a violation.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by etn_ump

You guys are making this a whole lot more complicated than it is.

So, what's the simple answer?

[LMan]

No alteration of play, no FPSR violation.

Often, definitions of an illegal slide require the presence of a fielder for reference (spikes above the knee, etc) so if the bag is uncovered, what are you judging against?

Im not calling a pop-up slide when the base is completely uncovered - there's no alteration of play.

[PeteBooth]

I echo Bob, it's something that FED needs to "clear-up"

If you read the FED rule on FPSR violations there is no mention of making contact or altering the play.

If there is a FPSR situation and a player slides ILLEGALLY (as in this case when R1 did not slide directly to the bag) the call is

1. TIME
2. That's interference
3. 2 are out

However, if there is no FPSR situation in effect as I believe question 89 that Garth referred to applies then you need contact or alteration.

It's my gut that FED will change the wording / interp to that of NCAA in the upcoming year(s).

Pete Booth

[David B]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Right. But, does that apply to the roll-block, pop-up, beyond the base slides only (which contains the "and makes contact" wording in the slide definition), or does it also apply to the "on a force play slide directly to the base" slide, which does not contain the "contact" provision?

I'm not disagreeing, I'm seeking clarification. Like CoachJM, I find the wording in 8-4-2b confusing, especially when combined with Kyle McNeely's (?) interp of many years ago on one of these sites that contact was required.

I do know that NCAA changed the rule this year so contact / alteration is required, but it was clear at the clinic that any benefit of the doubt went to the fielder. In fact, one example was shown in which I could not see any contact / alteration, but they wanted it called a violation.

Exactly Bob, the more they try and clarify the more confusing it gets.

Perfect example the test question from FED - an illegal slide is always supposed to be penalized - so now if FED saying they don't want it penalized?

Sounds like another messed up test question.

Thanks
David

[David B]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

I echo Bob, it's something that FED needs to "clear-up"

If you read the FED rule on FPSR violations there is no mention of making contact or altering the play.

If there is a FPSR situation and a player slides ILLEGALLY (as in this case when R1 did not slide directly to the bag) the call is

1. TIME
2. That's interference
3. 2 are out

However, if there is no FPSR situation in effect as I believe question 89 that Garth referred to applies then you need contact or alteration.

It's my gut that FED will change the wording / interp to that of NCAA in the upcoming year(s).

Pete Booth

Semantics I know Pete, but what is the definition of an illegal slide?

Thats the problem.

In the rule 2-32

2-32-2c - the runner goes beyound the base and then makes contact or alters the play of the fielder (they added that a few years ago about making contact i belive after the McNeely ruling)

But then you have 2-32-2f - the runner on a force play does not slide on the ground and in a direct line between the two bases - well if he's touching part of the direct line is he considered touching? (as would be a foul/fair ball, strike/ball)

It gives the umpire disgression IMO to make the call as he deems by the play.

So if it doesn't alter the play IMO its not a violation. I still can't find my rulings from a few years back but I think Carl covered this very clearly in one of his writings on the FPSR on the officiating.com site last year also.

Thanks
David

[David B]

Couldn't get it to attach so I'm just pasting it here. This was based on Carl's articles on this topic that traced the FPSR for the last 25 years. It covered through 2005 but I don't know of any significant changes the last two years.

If I missed something let me know!



Force Play Slide Rule (FPSR) Q and A (based on NFHS rules and interpretations)


Here are questions regarding the FPSR (Force Play Slide Rule) in FED (High school baseball). Base your rulings on the NFHS force-play-slide rule. Here are the salient points, but be advised: You can’t answer some plays correctly without knowing casebook and Website rulings from the FED.

• At a force base the runner may not slide at or into the fielder if he is on the base or slide beyond the base: If he does so and makes illegal contact or alters the pattern of play, the umpire calls interference.

• The runner must slide on the ground head first or feet first in a straight line or away from the fielder.

• The runner does not have to slide if he runs to the opposite side of the fielder.

• If interference is called, two are always out: the interferer and the batter-runner.

• Other runners must return to the bases occupied at the time of the pitch.

Assume, unless specified differently, that there is one runner on first (R1) and the batter has hit a ground ball to an infielder.

[I]The questions and answers:[/I]

Play 1: R1 steals. The throw goes wide right at second. R1 slides so far to the left of the base he cannot reach it with his extended arm. He does manage to scramble back safely as F4's tag is too late.

1. Ruling: Safe.
Comment: The slide restrictions do apply in steal situations. It is true that R1 could not reach and maintain the bag. Hence, his slide was illegal except: He slid away from the fielder and so was not guilty of interference.

Play 2: The shortstop shovels the ball to F4, standing on the bag. R1, feet first with one buttock on the ground and his foot raised as high as the fielder’s knee, slides into F4, who overthrows first.

2. Ruling: R1 is out; the umpire awards B1 second.
Comment: R1 executed a legal slide.

Play 3: R1 slides head first with one arm raised above his head. He slams into F4, who cannot throw to first.

3. Ruling: B1 is safe. Comment: R1's slide is legal. The only restriction on a head-first slide is that the runner must not slide beyond the base.

Play 4: The shortstop throws wildly to F4, who is behind the bag when he grabs the ball. R1, feet first with one buttock on the ground and his foot raised as high as the fielder’s knee, slides across the base and into F4, who overthrows first.

4. Ruling: Double play.
Comment: The slide was legal until R1 went beyond (across) the base and contacted F4.

Play 5: As the shortstop takes the throw, he crosses the bag readying himself to fire to first. Before he can throw, R1 slides, then pops-up on the base. He does not contact the fielder, whose throw to first is straight and true — but not in time.

5. Ruling: "That’s nothing."
Comment: R1 executed an illegal slide, but there was no contact and he did not alter the throw. The defensive coach might argue the pop-up slide "distracted" his fielder, who is a only a freshman. Your reply: "You ought to play upperclassmen in the infield."

Play 6: F4 falls onto the base in a kneeling position when he takes the throw. R1 slides into him. His leg strikes the fielder in the side, and F4 cannot throw to first.

6. Ruling: No interference: B1 is safe.
Comment: The umpire would have ruled interference because the runner’s foot struck the fielder higher than his knee — except the runner was not "in a standing position."

Play 7: F6 takes the ball and crosses the base, moving three or four steps into the right-field side of second. R1 does not slide; rather, he goes into second standing up. F6 throws wildly to first, pulling the first baseman from the bag.

7. Ruling: B1 is safe.
Comment: "Is F6 a freshman, too?" The runner does not have to slide as long as he does not contact the fielder or alter the pattern of play.

Play 8: R1 is moving on the pitch. The shortstop tries — not in time — for the out at second. The second baseman throws the ball to first, after which R1 pops-up on the base, bumping into the fielder.

8. Ruling: Double play.
Comment: Though the contact occurred after the throw and did not alter the play, it resulted from an illegal slide. I cannot stress the FED philosophy too much, here: If the runner slides illegally and contacts a fielder, the umpire will call interference.



Play 9: Bases loaded. F4 fields the ball and throws to F6 to start the double play. The shortstop catches the throw and forces out R1. F6 crosses the bag to the right-field side. F6 now throws to first as retired R1 begins his slide into second. Retired R1's slide is clearly to the right side of the bag (the side F6 is now on). R1 is sliding towards F6, but he misses the shortstop by a foot or two as F6 keeps moving after the throw. F6's throw is in time to retire B1 at first. Meanwhile, R3 scores.

9. Ruling: The play stands.
Comment: The question is: May the other runners advance? If interference is the call, they must return to the bases occupied at the time of the pitch, regardless of which base they last touched before the interference. Even though it is obvious the runner is illegally sliding toward the fielder, it is not interference: There was no contact, and the slide did not alter the pattern of play. The ball remains alive: two out, R3 in, R2 on third.

Play 10: The ball is smashed on one hop to F6, who flips to second. The throw to first nails R1 in the helmet. He is perhaps thirty feet from second when he is hit.

10. Ruling: Double play.
Comment: The priest would assign at least 10 Hail Mary’s as penance for your language. But the play is based on a Rumble ruling in the FED News, #1, March 1998. (You’ll recall that was the year he restructured the Force-Play-Slide Rule at 8-4-2b, c, and d. It’s clear he was up on what the Committee wanted.)

Play 11: When F4 takes the throw, he comes off the base directly down the line toward first. As he is about to throw, a sliding R1 smashes him with a leg raised no higher than the standing fielder’s knee. F4 cannot throw to first.

11 Ruling: The play stands.
Comment: Though the runner altered the pattern of play, he did so with a legal slide. The fielder is at fault.

Play 12: No outs. The bases are loaded when the coach signals for that rarest of plays, the triple steal. B1 rolls to short. R1 is out at second just after speedy R3 crosses the plate. R1 pops up and jostles F4, who nevertheless gets off a throw, in time to nip the slowest runner on the team at first.

12. Ruling: Interference: Automatic double play.
Comment: That the defense completed the double play is irrelevant. Your call of interference at second means runners (R2/R3) must return to the bases occupied at the time of the pitch.